Is This A Timing Issue?

kbondelmarva

New User
Although I've searched the previous articles and posts I can't find a good answer. So, I'll ask it here after I give you some background.
Background: Purchased 8N s/n 315159, 6 volt system, gen/regulator system was not working/charging it had been converted to electronic ignition, though. It replaced 8N s/n 367528. A 12 volt converted tractor that I've used for years but was showing her age and needed some major work done. The 6 volt tractor ran fine except I had to charge the battery evey so often and I had planned a 12 volt conversion in the fall.
Now to the fun part..., not. For reasons I won't go into here, the 6 volt tractor's battery was charged in reverse while still in and connected to the system. Obviously I lost the battery and had a choice to make. Convert now or buy a 6 volt battery. I chose to convert now. All went well until I got to the distributor and the electronic ignition module. When I pulled the module from the 12v tractor to put into the new conversion tractor I made note of the screw holes and position of the module on the distributor's plate and the position of that plate relative to the distributor's position on the tractor. But, when I popped the cap on the former 6v tractor the positions were way off from what I'd noted. The 6v tractor's ignition module and the distributor's plate were at least 45 degrees off. However, both tractors would have been able to start prior.
I continued anyway and mounted the new 12v module on the plate even though it seemed off to me. Finnished the rest of the conversion and tried to start. The former 6v, now 12v, tractor cranks fine, has fire and is getting fuel but won't start nor even fire. My first guess is that the timing is so far off as to keep the engine from firing at all. Does anyone have a little better handle on what may be going on here then I do? Any help is greatly appreciated..., my grass is getting out of control :-\
 
That was a very good summary of the problem...but you left out a key piece of information: the make & model of both EI units.

Some units are not interchangeable.....and I think you are about to find that out.

Yes, contrary to what some here will tell you, timing, as well as bushing wear, are important to EI. So that is a possibility.
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Bruce(VA)
I can't say about the 6v EI module but the 12v module was purchased here from YT albeit a few years back however, they both look quite similar. I'll do some research on them once I've IDed them.

Mark
I don't have that tool available atm but will keep your suggestion in mind should I have to go that far.

David G
I did mark the cap and wiring that I pulled from the 6v tractor but haven't looked at whether there is some miss match between it and the 12v distributor cap I used for the conversion.

I'll do a little more testing. Hopefully I can solve this and let the group know what I've found. It may help someone in the future. At any rate, thanks to you all for your help.
 
(quoted from post at 01:00:32 08/13/14) Bruce(VA)
I can't say about the 6v EI module but the 12v module was purchased here from YT albeit a few years back however, they both look quite similar. I'll do some research on them once I've IDed them.

Mark
I don't have that tool available atm but will keep your suggestion in mind should I have to go that far.

David G
I did mark the cap and wiring that I pulled from the 6v tractor but haven't looked at whether there is some miss match between it and the 12v distributor cap I used for the conversion.

I'll do a little more testing. Hopefully I can solve this and let the group know what I've found. It may help someone in the future. At any rate, thanks to you all for your help.
wo sets of mounting holes be sure you are using set for 8N and not set for NAA
 
not trying to hijack this thread but can you put a timing light on an N? I know there's a jig/measurement for setting a front dizzy while it's off but I got frustrated the other day and started monkeying with the timing adjustment (12v points 9N -starts up on #1 cyl and takes 5-10 seconds for the other cyls to start firing - just replaced the head gasket and all valves worked and sealed, nothing hanging up or burnt, all cyl walls looked good, have not done compression or leakdown)

Can I check the timing with a light (sheetmetal's off for paint) or do I need to yank the dizzy?
 
The side mount distributor can be checked with a timing light but the front mount doesn't have timing marks on the flywheel or the access hole.

Mark
 
" I got frustrated the other day and started monkeying with the timing adjustment "

" or do I need to yank the dizzy? "

Those statements appear to be contradictory.


How did you monkey with the timing w/o pulling the distributor?

"Can I check the timing with a light "

Yes, if you scribe marks on the crank pulley & fab a marker, as in the picture.

(the picture is my 29 Ford; same concept)

But......

All the light will tell you is that your static or dynamic timing is off. You will still need to pull the distributor to ADJUST the timing.

" I know there's a jig/measurement for setting a front dizzy while it's off"

Yes, as in the picture. And I think it's worth the $$$. But, you can adjust the timing w/o it.

If you're interested, I'll post the info.
IMG_20140102_115305_886_zps1dfd0e11.jpg

IMG_20140212_144910_554_zps7098b9a8.jpg

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Can you do a rough timing set on the N like car engines? E.g get compression up on cylinder 1 and then put the distributor in with the rotor near cyl 1 on the cap or is this a different beast altogether?
 
Bruce, I loosened the adjustment bolt on the outside of the distributor that lets you move the breaker plate assembly and tried moving it up and down to get all 4 cyls firing right.

I'm guessing I could pull #1 plug, get it to TDC, scribe the front pulley, put a pointer on there...... and find out I'd marked it for the exhaust stroke :)
 
You do understand that we are talking about a front distributor N engine, right? So, the answer to that question is no.

For a side distributor N engine, the answer is yes.
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" and find out I'd marked it for the exhaust stroke :) "

LMAO!

" to get all 4 cyls firing right. "

Timing will effect all 4 cylinders equally.

Just pull the distributor, check bushing wear, set the points correctly then set the timing.

If the bushings are ok & you set the gap correctly, the timing will end up not much more than 4* from the center mark.
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Bruce, I realize the timing is across the firing order and so all 4 cyls will have the same timing. The 9n is starting on #1 cyl (according to pulling the plug wires one at a time and finding the only one that changes the idle is #1 - it kills it) and my IR temp probe shows #1 is the only one hot for the first 20-30 seconds of running.

so when I loosened the bolt on the side of the distributor and slid it up and down trying to affect idle thinking it would help, I was only advancing/retarding it 4*

I just can't find any reason it doesn't start on all 4 cyls. Unless my plug wires are bad, PO said they were new 3 yrs ago. Think I should put a set on? Or can I measure the resistance of the wires?
 
First thing I'd do is pull the distributor, check the bushing wear, set the points & then the timing.

If that doesn't work, post back.

I don't think the plug wires start working after 30 seconds of run time.
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I finally got it to start but I'm still in the dark as to why it did. As I said earlier I'd taken the distributor cap and wires from the 12v tractor and put them on the one I was converting. Well I decided to go backwards and put the original cap and wires back on. When I did it fired immediately and has run fine ever since.
I've not looked at either set of cap and wires to find the answer I'm just assuming that the 12v tractor's cap had acquired that all too well known 8N distributor cap syndrome during the couple of weeks it had set up.
Bruce, Mark, David & JMOR thanks so much for your time and suggestions. I'm just sorry to have wasted your valuable time and knowledge on something so trivial. Something I should have caught long before I bothered you guys. Thanks again.

Ken
 

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