Yesterday's Tractor Co. Low Prices, Parts Ship Fast!
Click Here or call 800-853-2651 
   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver
 
Marketplace
Classified Ads
Photo Ads

Community
Discussion Forums
Project Journals
Tractor Town
Your Stories
Show & Pull Guide
Events Calendar
Hauling Schedule

Galleries
Tractor Photos
Implement Photos
Vintage Photos
Help Identify
Parts & Pieces
Stuck & Troubled
Vintage Ads
Community Album
Photo Ad Archives

Research & Info
Articles
Tractor Registry
Tip of the Day
Safety Cartoons
Tractor Values
Serial Numbers
Tune-Up Guide
Paint Codes
List Prices
Production Nbrs
Tune-Up Specs
Torque Values
3-Point Specs
Glossary

Miscellaneous
Tractor Games
Just For Kids
Virtual Show
Museum Guide
Memorial Page
Feedback Form

Yesterday's Tractors Facebook Page

Related Sites
Tractor Shed
TractorLinks.com
Ford 8N/9N Club
Today's Tractors
Garden Tractors
Classic Trucks
Kountry Life
Enter your email address to receive our newsletter!

subscribe
unsubscribe
  
Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

Re: Loader hydraulic too powerful

[Show Entire Topic]  

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author  [Modern View]
TheOldHokie

08-09-2014 15:14:24
71.176.182.141



Report to Moderator


petertay said: (quoted from post at 09:46:14 08/09/14) Thanks for for the replies. To answer any questions about the pump itself, I"d have to dig through receipts from two years ago. But I did buy it (online) from an ag pump dealer who sold it as the correct pump for the application.
The cylinders appear to be not original. They are three feet long with the rods being 1 5/8 inches diameter. The valves are of unknown origin. The whole system is cobbled together with the oil reservoir hanging out front of the radiator.


Your photo shows a valve with ONE connection. There is NO connection to any of the work ports or a return to the tank from the valve. What's up with that? I fail to see how that could possibly work in any fashion. There is no way to send oil to any cylinder or return oil to the tank.

Unless you have something mighty unusual in the way of hydraulic components the valve should be plumbed for open center operation. The RETURN port on the right side of the valve needs to be connected to the reservoir and the quick connect on the work port needs to be connected to the lift cylinder. That should work fine.

The "standard" operator convention for lift cylinders is to pull back on the lever to raise the loader and push forward to lower it. Your quick connect is in the forward work port which means yours would operate backwards to that - you would push forward to raise and pull back to lower. Move the quick connect to the rear port if you want the standard behavior.

IF you connected the lift cylinder to that valve as it is currently plumbed you would have dead headed pump pressure (3000+ PSI) behind the spool and I can easily imagine that the loader would raise very abruptly when you initially shifted the spool but without a return line there would be NO WAY to get it to lower????

You need to provide a COMPLETE description of ALL of the hydraulic connections as they are when the loader is behaving as you described. I think it is safe to say the problem is the plumbing - not the flow rate.

TOH

PS> Keep running that pump dead headed into that valve and you will QUICKLY need a new pump. Makes me suspect that was the fate that befell the original pump....
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 03:57:34 08/10/14 4 times.

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
petertay

08-10-2014 05:03:14
74.112.139.238



Report to Moderator
 Re: Loader hydraulic too powerful in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-09-2014 15:14:24  
TOH: Thank you for taking the time to help.

About the return: it doesn"t show in the photo because it exits out the bottom of the valve assembly. There is a filter cartridge hanging there, then a return line. Old and rusty. Appears to have been that way forever.

About the pump, the reciept shows:
L827-10X-LB Front Loader Pump Ford 8n NAA 600 + Massey Ferguson
Item 360432046151

Now here"s an oddity. It DOES lift when the lever is pushed forward, so I have standard operation. BUT, when I bought it, it ran the other way, so I switched ports with the quick connect and the presure line to reverse the operation to standard.

Description of plumbing: The pump has 1-inch ports reduced to 3/4. Then to 1/2 inch. The pressure line runs to the spool as shown in the photo. The return line runs through the filter back to the tank. Sorry about the misleading photo which shows an empty quick connect. That"s where I put in the 3/8 line mentioned in the OP. The 3/8 line runs down to a Tee which goes to both cylinders.

Again, thank you. --Peter

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
TheOldHokie

08-10-2014 05:30:05
71.176.182.141



Report to Moderator
 Re: Loader hydraulic too powerful in reply to petertay, 08-10-2014 05:03:14  

petertay said: (quoted from post at 08:03:14 08/10/14) TOH: Thank you for taking the time to help.
About the return: it doesn"t show in the photo because it exits
out the bottom of the valve assembly. There is a filter cartridge
hanging there, then a return line. Old and rusty. Appears to
have been that way forever.

About the pump, the reciept shows:

L827-10X-LB Front Loader Pump
Ford 8n NAA 600 + Massey Ferguson

Item 360432046151

Now here"s an oddity. It DOES lift when the lever is pushed
forward, so I have standard operation. BUT, when I bought it, it
ran the other way, so I switched ports with the quick connect and
the presure line to reverse the operation to standard.

Description of plumbing: The pump has 1-inch ports reduced to
3/4. Then to 1/2 inch. The pressure line runs to the spool as
shown in the photo. The return line runs through the filter back
to the tank. Sorry about the misleading photo which shows an
empty quick connect. That"s where I put in the 3/8 line
mentioned in the OP. The 3/8 line runs down to a Tee which
goes to both cylinders.

Again, thank you. --Peter


OK - return out the bottom and the other line was hooked up to the coupler.

Since the pump is a fixed displacement going from a 1/2" to a 3/8" hose isn't going to substantially decrease the flow rate. It will simply increase the speed at which the fluid flows through the line and generate more heat and power loss in the plumbing.

Standard operation is for the loader to raise when the lever is pulled backwards and drop when pushed forward. To plumb it opposite that is not the norm but that is a "preference" and not your problem.

The pump is the "standard" loader pump sold right here and used on a gadzillion of these old loaders. YT says it produces 14 GPM @ 2000 RPM. Since flow rate is directly proportional to engine RPM the flow rate at 500 RPM (idle) is 14/4 = 3.5 GPM and at 1000 RPM 7 GPM. Do you get the same jerky behavior at lower engine speeds? See where I am going?

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 05:33:27 08/10/14.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Petertay

08-10-2014 15:19:49
74.112.139.238



Report to Moderator
 Re: Loader hydraulic too powerful in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-10-2014 05:30:05  
Yes, I see where you"re going. Just tried it. At 500 RPM it is nice and slow. At 900 it"s twice as fast. At 1200 it jumps.

When I"m plowing snow with a heavy V-plow, and the engine is at high speed, I lift and lower the plow at that speed. At least I hope to. Going through a 24-inch drift may require lifting the plow a bit, but when it jumps up, it seems as if it"s tearing things apart.

BTW: about plowing snow on a hilly lane: it has wheel weights and chains, but the poor little thing is so light, we just had the tires fluid filled. This also helps when pulling logs up a grassy slope. Fun little tractor.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
TheOldHokie

08-10-2014 15:58:56
71.176.182.141



Report to Moderator
 Re: Loader hydraulic too powerful in reply to Petertay, 08-10-2014 15:19:49  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Certainly sounds like you need to reduce the flow but you are still giving subjective descriptions. Give me something empirical. At ~1500 RPM engine speed how long does it take to lift the loader from the ground to full height? As a data point the Model 730 Ford loader had a full lift height of 10'-5". The unloaded lift time with a 19 GPM pump was 2.6 seconds and with the 14 GPM pump it took 3.6 seconds. That works out to 3-4 feet per second which is pretty snappy. What is the lift speed on your loader?

TOH

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
petertay

08-11-2014 07:33:47
74.112.139.238



Report to Moderator
 Re: Loader hydraulic too powerful in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-10-2014 15:58:56  
My lift times for the full ten feet are similar to what you mentioned:
500 RPM - 9 seconds
1200 RPM - 3 sec
1500 RPM - 2.5 sec

Think that Northern Tools reducer mentioned by ScoutB would allow a decent lift rate while running at higher speeds such as plowing or moving dirt?

Thanks again.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
TheOldHokie

08-11-2014 08:57:03
71.176.182.141



Report to Moderator
 Re: Loader hydraulic too powerful in reply to petertay, 08-11-2014 07:33:47  

petertay said: (quoted from post at 10:33:47 08/11/14) My lift times for the full ten feet are similar to what you mentioned:

500 RPM - 9 seconds

1200 RPM - 3 sec

1500 RPM - 2.5 sec

Think that Northern Tools reducer mentioned by ScoutB would
allow a decent lift rate while running at higher speeds such as
plowing or moving dirt?

Thanks again.


Nine seconds is way too slow for my taste and 2.5 seconds is PDQ. Sort of like porridge - too hot or too cold ;-)

If I used a flow restrictor it would be in the lift cylinder work circuit - not the pump supply line coming to the valve. The restrictor is going to create a substantial back pressure in the circuit and I wouldn't want the pump running full time into that sort of load for the very good reasons ScoutB gave you. I'd also use a one way restrictor so that you don't slow down the speed at which the lift drops. Here is a nice adjustable one that is a bit cheaper than the one from Northern Tool: Prince Flow Reducer

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 09:00:44 08/11/14.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
petertay

08-11-2014 09:09:21
74.112.139.238



Report to Moderator
 Re: Loader hydraulic too powerful in reply to TheOldHokie, 08-11-2014 08:57:03  
I have ordered a flow reducer for the cylinder hose.
Thank you everybody (especially TOH).



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Show Entire Topic]     [Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:

TRACTOR   PARTS TRACTOR   MANUALS
Same-Day Shipping! Most of our stocked parts ship the same day you order (M-F).  Expedited shipping available, just call!  Most prices for parts and manuals are below our competitors.  Compare our super low shipping rates!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor.  We are a Company you can trust and have generous return policies!   Shop Online Today or call our friendly sales staff toll free (800) 853-2651. [ More Info ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2014 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters