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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

No Hydraulic Action

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Tall T

08-07-2014 18:47:17
24.108.0.163



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O.K. what am I missing?

1st startup in 2 months. first thing happened was a dripping sediment bowl which I think I have stopped. Next the rpms shot up so I frantically worked the throttle control but nothing so I quickly turned it off. Tried once more, same deal so I turned it off quickly again. The throttle link to the governor was off. I guess while installing a fan belt I had dislodged it.

Makes me sick to think of letting the rpms get that high -- even for 5 seconds!

BUT . . . No action out of the hydraulic quadrant at all.

I changed the filter that's on the hydraulics a while back but had never tried to use the hydraulics till today -- just got the new wheels on 2 hours ago.

I have my guesses like the pump being out of prime (having to be bled of air) because of the disturbance & loss in the return line by my changing that filter. I wondered about the filter itself, but I crossed the Kralinator correctly that was on it.

Sure hope it is something simple after all the blood, sweat, tears and time the tractor has eaten up so far.

Thanks,

Terry

P.S

Those unsightly marks on the tires are the construction adhesive I've been experimenting with and I just put it on today. I could sand it off tomorrow I suppose.


This post was edited by Tall T at 21:55:21 08/07/14 5 times.

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Tall T

08-08-2014 14:06:00
24.108.0.163



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-07-2014 18:47:17  
"Your gauge is showing 2-3 inches of mercury - 1-1.5 PSI. That isn't anywhere close to being a problem."

Oh, I get it now . . . I think.

The guage only indicates the restriction of oil flow

through the filtering medium. As the filtering medium becomes more and more saturated, the psi increases to the red zone. but even if the vacuum pressure on the guage is in the red, indicating a saturated filter, oil flow is not proportionally restricted to the pump as the oil then simply bypasses the loaded filter on the way to the pump.

What is the input oil pressure at the vane pump?

Thanks,

Terry
This post was edited by Tall T at 14:43:10 08/08/14.

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TheOldHokie

08-09-2014 04:47:56
71.176.182.141



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-08-2014 14:06:00  

Tall T said: (quoted from post at 17:06:00 08/08/14) "Your gauge is showing 2-3 inches of mercury - 1-1.5 PSI. That isn't anywhere close to being a problem."

Oh, I get it now . . . I think.

The guage only indicates the restriction of oil flow

through the filtering medium. As the filtering medium becomes more and more saturated, the psi increases to the red zone. but even if the vacuum pressure on the guage is in the red, indicating a saturated filter, oil flow is not proportionally restricted to the pump as the oil then simply bypasses the loaded filter on the way to the pump.

What is the input oil pressure at the vane pump?

Thanks,

Terry


No - I'm afraid you don''t got it now.
  1. Oil is being sucked in by the pump and input oil pressure at the pump inlet is NEGATIVE with respect to air pressure.
  2. If properly installed (i.e placed between outlet port on the filter and pump) that gauge is showing you the VACUUM at the inlet port on the pump.
  3. If improperly installed (e.g. placed between the inlet on the filter and the reservoir) it is showing you the VACUUM on the inlet to the filter which will be lower than on the pump - much, much lower if the filter is clogged and there is no bypass in the head.
  4. IF your filter head has a bypass in it and the oil is not overly thick the inlet vacuum on the pump will never be greater then the bypass pressure.
Sounds like you don't have a good handle on what exactly you have and I'd suggest you correct that by replacing both the head and the filter with KNOWN commodities. Cost for a Zinga 3 PSI bypass head and a 100 mesh (140u) strainer is about $50 bucks.

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 04:52:01 08/09/14.

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Tall T

08-08-2014 11:23:38
24.108.0.163



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-07-2014 18:47:17  
Modern hydraulic systems use a strainer on the suction side and a filter on the return side. I'd strongly suggest using a Zinga AE-100 or equivalent wire mesh spin-on element in place of that paper element. You might have to replace the head to get it to fit but a Zinga AEF head is cheaper that a typical filter.

Thanks for the tips OH.

I will definitely look for that wire mesh spin on!!

I just installed the new filter service gage on the filter head and it works!! What do you think of the vacuum pressure??

Is the paper element limiting the vacuum it should have?

Used high speed wire wheel to clean all the excess crack filler from one tire. Now I need some black shoe polish. :D
thanks again!

Terry




This post was edited by Tall T at 12:03:08 08/08/14 2 times.

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TheOldHokie

08-08-2014 12:15:33
71.176.182.141



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-08-2014 11:23:38  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Your gauge is showing 2-3 inches of mercury - 1-1.5 PSI. That isn't anywhere close to being a problem.
TOH



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Royse

08-07-2014 19:18:09
69.36.49.186



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-07-2014 18:47:17  
You're probably right about it having lost prime.

Especially if it worked before.

Looks to me like you have the original vane style pump, but

maybe some aftermarket plumbing on there.

Is there a place to add oil to prime, or at least to let air out?



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Tall T

08-08-2014 00:18:11
24.108.0.163



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Royse, 08-07-2014 19:18:09  
Do old original vane pumps, if un-rebuilt till now, get noisy

as they approach replacement time?

I now know why the Hat rims became a rust problem. Some water got into the bolt pocket via the threads on the top side, but the killer was the carriage bolt head on the backside, not having full hat ring metal under it cause the square boss is too close to the edge . . .
I should have poured on the sealant more there and not worried about the squeeze out. A nornal gasket under the bolt head doesn't get flattened enough there and the squared part of the bolt shaft is right against the inside wheel side of the Hat ring -- TOO close. I should have put way more on the entire squared section of the shaft rather than my emphasis being under the head and only a partial way UP the squared shaft . . . because the bolt head has only got a thin edge of metal to squeeze against there at the edge.
A squared leather washer "might" have been good . . . contemplated it but just wanted the darned thing rolling again.

The edge of the inner side of the bolt boss isn't perfectly plane with the channel surface at each bolt so a gasket there might make leakage worse. A square, tight O-ring. :)
chaio,

T

So driving through a creek or something would flood the channel with water mostly getting in under the overhanging bolt heads in the back.

Outside, my disks can kind of breathe and maybe that's good.

The bolts are encircled with compressed oiled leather between disk and hat ring.

The leathers on the up side also keep the flat washers from rust-welding themselves to the disk.

But also on the top side the bolt is too close to the edge as you can see, but at least there, there is a way better shoulder for the leather to get squeezed against at the edge -- not so with the bottom edge -- I mean the channel's edge on the in-side of the wheel.

Service procedure for hat rims

Thoroughly clean the overhanging bolt head area with alcohol or something that won't harm the paint, and give them a generous hit of sealant . . . under the lip.

And surround the bolt head if there is no sealant under the heads at all.

I'd rather do all that or something like it

than drill holes to let trapped water out. :)
If I can keep it bone dry in there, that present rust won't get worse.

Anyway, enough rambling,

Cheers,

Terry
This post was edited by Tall T at 01:06:28 08/08/14 3 times.

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Tall T

08-07-2014 19:35:54
24.108.0.163



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Royse, 08-07-2014 19:18:09  
Thanks men!

GOOD NEWS from your resident worry wort.

I just went out to start it up again and the hydraulics are performing perfectly now, so obviously it primed itself.

Royse, I went out and looked for a bleed spot just as you were writing that probably but don't see one. I was thinking I might just have to disconnect the line where it enters the pump and draw from there till I had solid fluid.

I respectfully disagree about the addition of the hydraulic filter and service guage being a monster in the making. I'm betting I have a pretty clean sump. :D
But thanks for the great idea Zane about filling the filter!!

Thanks for coming to the rescue!
Terry

I hadn't actually looked at my restored emblem up front till a minute ago, as the tractor was nose to the wall when I removed and reinstalled it.


This post was edited by Tall T at 19:38:27 08/07/14.

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Ultradog MN

08-08-2014 04:38:32
174.20.241.188



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-07-2014 19:35:54  
Lot of those tractors ran for a lot of years and millions of hours without any filtration at all.
So I would say it's not crucial.
Yours wont hurt anything for sure but Zane is correct. And it is more exposed stuff to get hit and more places to leak or lose prime.
Ford didn't filter the hyd oil untill 1976. On the 26/3600 tractors they went to a gear pump which had the filter right on it.

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Tall T

08-08-2014 08:39:03
24.108.0.163



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Ultradog MN, 08-08-2014 04:38:32  
That's a beauty; a pump with a filter mount.

I like it!

I'm in no way going to imply that every tractor should have one

just because I happen to.

My tractor came this way is all.

I see what you mean about the hazards of the filter hitting something depending on the uses the tractor is put to. There would have to be some kind of protective guard around it in some cases I suppose.

I searched a WIX catalogue in the Hydraulic section and found every number surrounding mine but not mine exactly. so yesterday when ordering some 15W40 Amsoil for a friend, I ordered another Wix Hydraulic but they had to cross the number to a Donaldson.

I'm going to have to do some dub-checking.

As you know, when you simply follow what someone has done or installed before, you are sometimes blindly assuming they had it right. At first I crossed the Kralinator number to the WIX I just put on.

So maybe my filter housing is so old, that the number ceased to be listed in some catalogues. Wix 51259

Cheers,

Gatemouth Graham 8)

P.S.

Vane pump article including pitfalls of suction side filtration!!

http://www.insidersecretstohydraulics.com/vane-pump.html
This post was edited by Tall T at 08:57:53 08/08/14.

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TheOldHokie

08-08-2014 09:37:06
71.176.182.141



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-08-2014 08:39:03  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Filtration is great but pump starvation is not.
The chances of the filter hitting something are slim. The chances of ripping off the underside hydraulic lines on an NAA is orders of magnitude greater - dozens of documented cases of that.

Modern hydraulic systems use a strainer on the suction side and a filter on the return side. I'd strongly suggest using a Zinga AE-100 or equivalent wire mesh spin-on element in place of that paper element. You might have to replace the head to get it to fit but a Zinga AEF head is cheaper that a typical filter.

TOH

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ZANE

08-08-2014 04:33:18
98.83.59.153



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-07-2014 19:35:54  
One of the greatest enemys of the hydraulic systems on these Ford tractors is any restriction in the suction side of the hydraulics. The pump is prone to draw in air at the shaft seal and the more the restriction the more air. These pumps won't pump air. It just lets the air pulse and no oil will flow. Even when Ford did put a filter in the later tractors it was in the dump side of the system and under pressure. Not on the suction side.

Zane

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Tall T

08-08-2014 08:26:36
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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to ZANE, 08-08-2014 04:33:18  
Thanks Zane . . . filter on the pressure side sounds good.

I don't know yet but I am thinking that hydraulic filters may actually be "designed" for the suction side as well and as such would be less restrictive with a possibly less fine filter medium

and lower pressure relief to facilitate by-passing, for when the filter medium is saturated.

Now to put the new gage on the filter mount to see what it tells me.

I forget where I saved this from:

"The OMT range of filters fits into return lines of hydraulic circuits (pressure up to 20 bar), suction lines and medium/high pressure lines (100/420bar).

Depending on the models, they can be equipped with accessories like differential clogging indicators (visual and electric), pressure gauges, pressure switches, by pass valves etc."

So here's something to ponder.

Suppose some people had just measured the filter gasket and put any spin on there that would fit. Any restricted flow would then be attributed to the filter system itself and such systems would then get a bad rap.

Cheers,

Terry

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ZANE

08-07-2014 19:17:39
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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-07-2014 18:47:17  
It looks to me like somebody has created a monster by adding that filter to the hydraulic system. It is a place to store lots of air and these hydraulic pumps don't like air in them. Try filling the filter with oil and then just run the engine till the lift works. May take 15 minutes.

Zane



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Ultradog MN

08-07-2014 19:11:35
174.20.241.188



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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Tall T, 08-07-2014 18:47:17  
Bleed your pump.
Looks like you have the squareish shaped vane pump.
I've never done it on one of those but there must be a bleeder on it.
Piston pumps (1955-1975) have a socket head pipe plug on the side of the pump. With the engine at slow idle crack that plug and let it spit till all of the air gets out of it. Then retighten.
Makes a big mess so use a pan under it.
What's the oil filter behind the radius rod for?
Nice looking tractor.

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Tall T

08-07-2014 19:41:02
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 Re: No Hydraulic Action in reply to Ultradog MN, 08-07-2014 19:11:35  
Dawg,

That's the Hydraulic Oil filter setup.

The gage on it is incorrect but I have the right one now.

It tells you when the filter needs servicing.

Cheers,

TT

..... But I'm particularily concerned with the creativity that happened on assembling disk to rim. The Spirit had a sax repairman named Dave who is my neighbor, give me a thin tympany head years ago! I made two bongo heads out of it and had some left over. So I made backing washers for the disk itself and under the lug nut washer. I soaked them all in Tung oil, then thought baby oil might be best. Baby oil sucks on drum heads so i finally found a use for it.

Behind the head of the lag bolt is a bed of Prematex Ultra Blue I had in my stash.

The lug nuts would hang nicely from the hat ring, kept there by thread on leather washers, TOUGH and thin. :D
So with the heads hanging down 1/2" I loaded the heads and square drive with strong silicone.

It was touch and go for a bit till I fortunately realized I needed a handle I Could count on, to lower the disk without dinging the paint. I got it out of there quickly and went to build a handle out of a battery strap. . . the crappy ones without the little grabbers.

Incredible!

As I was torquing them, a tiny bit of oil came out, yet to look at them after an overnight soak, they hardly seemed fatter, but they were, holding oil . . .
Funny. . . best little gasket I've ever used. :D
I had to crank each leather washer on, first only thinking about sealing out water, so I was making the hole tight . . . but to my surprise I could use them to hold my bolts up like guidepins.

The first crappy disk handle I used, I almost slipped, but at least while down in there I reallized I could wiggle the disk onto all the suspended floating bolts!!
It was a thing of beauty, I'll tell you.

And not the slightest bruise on the paint. :D
I had to stick my arm through to hold each head and sometimes force them upward . . . through those pesky washers. So my elbow was killing me until I padded the edge of the entry port.

the nuts and washers I sprayed with some Krylon, metallic dark grey stuff that a sound engineer left me after I sprayed some speaker grilles for him. Pretty tough stuff. My red on the

axle wheel nuts was whimpy under the socket much moreso than the Krylon.
This Valspar gloss black rust paint smells very heavy duty and seems to be drying hard. I did my steering wheel spokes and the bottom of my International gas tank.

See if I've explained the photos well enough.
Ooops. . . photos to follow.

Don't mind me,
I'm a kid with a brand new toy

Saddest sights in the world

Are a tractor without wheels

And a farmer

Without joy :P







This post was edited by Tall T at 21:50:14 08/07/14 3 times.

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