Tractor doesn't run right

I have had this 8N for 13 years and have worked it hard. I have posted on this forum a few times and found useful information.
For the last few years my 8N has refused to run unless the chock was partially out.
I have done everything I know to do.
All new ignition components. Coil, wires, cap, rotor, points, condenser, timing weights. Did not replace the entire distributor.
New carburetor.
New fuel line, fuel filters, fuel valve.
Tractor is in time, spark plug wires are in 1243 order front to back,
distributor rotating counterclockwise.
Spark at all four plugs.
Compression in all four cylinders.
Problem-- For no apparent reason it will run great (albeit with the choke out about 1/3), then it will start missing and run like crap. Then, without touching anything, like while I am hooking up the brush hog, it will start running great again.
Pulled plugs. 1 and 2 look normal. 3 and 4 were fouled and wet.
Doesn't backfire through either the carburetor or the exhaust.
Any suggestions, or do I need to tear it completely apart and rebuild it from scratch?
Looked at rebuild kits running in price from under $200 to over $500. How is anyone supposed to make sense of that?
BTW. I rebuilt my first 4 cylinder engine when I was 15 so I know my way around the inside of an engine. It is just all the marketing BS on rebuild kits that I can't make sense of.
 
" do I need to tear it completely apart and rebuild it from scratch?"

I think I'd try diagnosing the problem before I threw any more parts at it.

Is it 6v or 12v? Front or side distributor?

Pulling out the choke gives you a richer mixture. So, you could have either a fuel or spark problem.

A carb out of adjustment will also cause this problem; set the main jet at 1-1/2 turns out & leave it alone.

A dirty carb can cause the problem as well; start by cleaning the fuel screens.

Dirty/old gas, or water in the gas can cause this problem.

Restricted fuel flow can cause this problem; remove the bolt at the bottom of the carb & check for flow.

On my 1950 frontmount, needing choke to run is the first sign that the points need adjusting/replacing.

A vacuum leak can do the same thing. Get a hand propane torch and carefully spray it (unlit of course) around the intake manifold at the carb to manifold interface & the manifold to block gasket of the tractor while it is running. Or, you can use carb cleaner or WD40. If it speeds up, you found the leak. Sometimes (rarely) manifolds crack or get rust holes.

Lastly, when all else fails, you could have an air leak around the carb metering section. The likely suspects are leaky throttle shaft seals and/or a worn throttle shaft. Or, just a real dirty carb w/ clogged passages.

Bottom line: Probably 90% of "needs choke to run" problems are fuel related, but do not rule out ignition problems, contrary to what others may tell you. I’ve had that very same problem before w/ a rebuilt carb, fresh fuel & good flow & a tight manifold.......and it was a spark problem. But, that was unusual. Just check the likely fuel problems first.

" For no apparent reason it will run great (albeit with the choke out about 1/3), then it will start missing and run like crap. Then, without touching anything, like while I am hooking up the brush hog, it will start running great again."

There are three very important tools you always need to have in your N tool box: a 3 inch piece of wire w/ alligator clips on each end, a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap (* see below) and a 7/16 box end wrench. (see tip # 50 at the link below) And, you really do need a working ammeter on the tractor; it is a very important diagnostic tool. With these tools, you can quickly narrow down most N problems to spark or fuel.

Next time it starts running rough, check quickly for fuel (** see below) then spark. When I say quickly, I mean get off the seat, grab the tools & do it right then. Do not wait a minute or two. First, check for fuel. Get a can & put it under the carb. Remove the bolt in the bottom of the carb; as long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. If gas flows well out of the carb & only stops when you turn it off at the sediment bowl, chances are very good it’s not a fuel problem. So, next, turn the key on, crank the engine & look at the ammeter. What is the needle doing? Does it show a constant discharge, no movement at all, or does it move back & forth slightly? Next, hook up your spark checker, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 1/4” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the ¼” gap, you have a spark problem. If the ammeter needle shows a constant discharge, or doesn’t move at all, that also tells you that you have a spark problem. Jump the ignition switch w/ your jumper wire & see what happens. If it runs, you found the problem. If it doesn’t have spark after you jump the ignition switch, post back for more info on further troubleshooting. (and do not forget to turn the ignition switch off; see tip # 38)

If it does not have gas coming out of the carb at a steady stream w/ the bolt out for at least 30 seconds, you have a fuel problem. First, remove the gas cap. Your vent could be clogged & it vacuum locked. If that doesn’t work, tap the carb bowl w/ a hammer handle in case the float is sticking closed. (don’t whack it w/ the head of the hammer; you can crack the bowl). If you still don’t see gas flowing, the N has three fuel screens; one in the brass elbow, one in the top of the sediment bowl & one on the stem of the sediment bowl in the gas tank. Check the screen in the elbow & the screen in the top of the sediment bowl. (don’t worry about the one in the tank) Both probably need to be cleaned. If you have the fuel knob turned on all the way, & 1 gallon or less in the tank, it may be trying to feed off of the reserve inlet which is probably clogged. Only open it 2 full turns. Put at least 2 gallons in the tank. (and do not forget to turn the gas off; see tip # 9)

There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. A store bought plug checker (in the picture) will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!

Post back with results or more questions.



*If you don’t own a spark checker w/ an adjustable gap, buy one. In the meantime, an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least ¼” will work. Ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine turn the key on & look for a spark.

** On most gas engines, you would check for spark first. But, the N gas tank has a pin-hole size vent that easily clogs, causing vacuum lock. By the time you check for spark, the vacuum lock will dissipate w/ the engine off
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I drained the tank to completely clean all three filters.
6volt, side distributor. New gas. I"ll check the spark, but you didn"t say what needs to be done if the spark won"t jump 1/4" and all the relevant parts are new and in proper adjustment.
I still suspect sticking rings or valves in cylinders 3 and 4. The fact that the other two cylinders are running fine pretty much rules out carb problems, vacuum problems, and everything that isn"t specific to those two cylinders, doesn"t it?
 
my first 8n did same thing needed choke out to run after lots of other things it turned out to be that nuts holding carb on were bottoming out but not actually tightening the carb to intake manifold I put extra washer on tightened down nuts and ran great.
 
" I drained the tank to completely clean all three filters..........all the relevant parts are new and in proper adjustment."

Well, if that were the case, it would be running properly now, wouldn't it?

You need to start from scratch w/ the diagnostics. Do not assume that if you replace a part that it solves the problem.

so, as I said, run ALL of those checks as soon as it starts to run poorly.

For example......

Those 3 new filters & clean gas will not prevent it from vacuum locking.

Run all the tests in the order I suggested.

" The fact that the other two cylinders are running fine pretty much rules out carb problems, vacuum problems, and everything that isn"t specific to those two cylinders, doesn"t it? "

No, it does not. Because you said "For no apparent reason it will run great (albeit with the choke out about 1/3), then it will start missing and run like crap. Then, without touching anything, like while I am hooking up the brush hog, it will start running great again."

I can assure you that sticky rings & valves don't stick & unstick to cause your problem. Sticky rings in 3 & 4 can foul plugs (probably are) but that is not causing it to run rough.

" but you didn"t say what needs to be done if the spark won"t jump 1/4""

The most common cause of a weak spark is a weak battery. That and too much resistance in the ignition circuit along with points issues.

But don't get ahead of yourself.

Find the problem then we can help you fix it. You could have a fuel problem.
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In addition to what Bob said about an air leak at the carb mount flange, a leaking intake manifold gasket would show similar symptoms.

As your manifold expands and contracts with heat the on-again-off-again times your engine is needing extra fuel "could" correspondingly be intermittent. When it is sucking excessive air through a leak, more fuel (choking) is called for to balance the mix.

T
 
After following Bruce's steps I would also look at the dist bushings. Any play will throw your firing off.

I would also suggest looking at your governor and its linkage. Some of the comments that you made seem to revolve around placing a load on the engine for instance "when hooking a brush hog"

Being a field tech most of my life (albeit in the Typesetting Industry) if I ever replaced a part and it proved no better than the original, I replaced the original part. Obviously it didn't fix my original issue and secondly I had no idea if I was adding to my original issue or not.
 
I started doing some tests today.
First I made sure that none of the spark plug wires are grounding out.
Then I took the two jets out of the carb and blew air through them. I could hear air bubbling in the oil in the bottom of the air filter.
I replaced them and set the air/fuel jet 1 1/2 turns out and the idle jet 1 turn out.
Then I checked for fuel at the carb. Fuel came out when I removed the bolt and ran freely until I put the bolt back in.
Then I started it and, as usual had to pull the choke about 1/3 the way out. It was running rough so I promptly took the bolt out of the fuel bowl again. NO GAS AT ALL came out. I found that if I plugged the hole with my finger the engine ran a little different for a second or two but no gas. I removed the gas cap. Still no gas. I tapped on the side of the float bowl with no result.
There is no fuel restriction to the carb ie, all three screens are spotless, so is this a float problem? Reason I ask is because I put this brand new carb on this tractor to try to solve this very problem, with no change at all.
Ampmeter jiggles back and forth when I am cranking the engine, plus it also has a new ignition switch. A person on this board assured me a few years ago that a new ignition switch would solve all my problems. It didn't.
 
My carb has studs that come from the carb up through the manifold flange and have a nut on the opposite side. But thanks anyway.
 
" I put this brand new carb on this tractor to try to solve this very problem, with no change at all."

As I said:

" Do not assume that if you replace a part that it solves the problem."

And do not ever buy new carbs for these tractors. Rebuild what you have, or have it rebuilt. You just discovered the reason why.


"....... so is this a float problem?"

Probably not.

But you might as well check it because you will need to pull the carb.

Make sure the float drop is set correctly & that it's not hanging up on the side of the bowl. And that it doesn't leak.

And what you need to do is replace the needle & seat. needle valve sticks & cuts off the fuel.


".... plus it also has a new ignition switch"

They fail too. But they are easy to jump.

I expect it will pass all of those tests.
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I still have the old carburetor. It is heavy, rusty, and home to a few mud daubers.
I can rebuild the old one again, or rebuild the new one. Something is wrong with the old one because rebuilding it the first time didn't make it work properly. I should note that I hate working on carburetors.
I rebuilt the Holley 4bl on my 1986 dually twice without luck. Put a new one on and the truck purrs like a kitten. A very big kitten.
 
I've never bought a new carb for any of the old stuff around here. And, given the price & quality work they do, I just have carbs rebuilt by:


Automotive Manufacturers Inc
2400 N Lombardy St Richmond, VA 23220
(804) 321-6861

They do mail order work. And they also rebuild clutches, pressure plates, water pumps, alternators, generators, starters & reline brakes.

By the time you buy a complete carb kit & the cleaning solvent, the $80 they charge for a rebuild is worth it.
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A complete carb kit- About $49.
Carb cleaner. $25 per gallon. Already have this from working on the dually, so no cost there really.
Shipping both ways ??

Getting ripped off $$$

I am 63 years old. I have never met a mechanic I could trust. Generally, you better know as much as they do or they will start replacing parts till they accidentally find out what is wrong.
My son's '89 Camaro had a faulty coil. The repair shop wanted over $600 to replace the distributor, and all related ignition parts except the coil. I fixed the car for a $25 coil.
They are also the shop that gave my '95 Z28 back with sticky paint after my son took out a mailbox with the left front fender.
A transmission shop swore that the reason my son's clutch on the same car slipped was because it needed a new $125 hydraulic clutch. When that didn't fix the problem I made them put it on the lift so I could take the tranny inspection plate off and let loose parts of the pressure plate fall out on the floor. They offered me a job at $8 per hour. I was making $16 per hour running a printing press so I turned him down, but suggested he hire a better mechanic. I have never been back.
The '86 dually had sat for 10 years not running. The carburetor was a lost cause from the beginning. Terribly corroded.
I said I hate working on a carburetor, not that I couldn't. I'll put a rebuild kit in it and let you know how it goes.
The one thing in this whole conversation that took me by surprise was that the fuel could run through the carburetor when the tractor wasn't running, but not when it was. I never tried that test, so finally, I think we have found the cure.
I only need to make this tractor work for the next 5 years, then I will sell it, along with my business, and this farm and go retire somewhere that I don't have to worry anymore.
 
(quoted from post at 12:05:45 07/23/14)
Then I checked for fuel at the carb. Fuel came out when I removed the bolt and ran freely until I put the bolt back in.
Then I started it and, as usual had to pull the choke about 1/3 the way out. It was running rough so I promptly took the bolt out of the fuel bowl again. NO GAS AT ALL came out. I found that if I plugged the hole with my finger the engine ran a little different for a second or two but no gas. I removed the gas cap. Still no gas. I tapped on the side of the float bowl with no result.

You found the problem, now just track it down.
When you don't get flow or not enough from the drain plug, immediately pull the line off at the carb.
Flow there? should be heavy there. if yes, the problem is in the carb, needle sticking, float dragging, etc.
if no,
take the glass sediment bowl off. Flow from tank?
If yes, problem is in the line somewhere.(don't forget to actually clean the inside of the line too, they corrode)
If no, tank outlet is plugged.....or you are out of gas :D
(all these quick tests done with gas cap off and carefully, pulling gas lines with a warm engine demands being careful)

and unlikely but does happen, water in the gas will give those symptoms. The bowl gets too much water in it and runs ragged. When you pull the plug to check flow, it lets the water out. all good....til it builds up again...
 
Update:
Put a rebuild kit in the carburetor. Tractor will now run with the choke all the way in. However, I still do not get a gas flow from the drain with it running. And now there is a popping sound coming through the air horn. Carb backfire. I have the external air cleaner horn on this 8N.
The only thing I found wrong with the carburetor was that the float setting was 5/16 inch instead of 1/4 inch, and the packing for the throttle shaft was missing.
I haven't tried to take it into the field to see how it works since I need a new gasket for the sediment bowl and a new fuel line.
Adjustable wrenches should be outlawed. They will always round off the shoulders of a perfectly good fuel line fitting. Not my fault, I am not the only one who uses this tractor.
So next, new fuel line fittings, since I don't like raw fuel dripping around a hot engine.
Check engine timing. Point gap, clean spark plugs and reset gap. Test ignition for resistance.
Any other suggestions?
 
Sounds like you've got the problem solved.

" and the packing for the throttle shaft was missing."

Uh-huh. It was sucking air. As I suggested:

" The likely suspects are leaky throttle shaft seals and/or a worn throttle shaft"

" They will always round off the shoulders of a perfectly good fuel line fitting."

A standard wrench will do that too. That's why flare wrenches were invented.

" Any other suggestions?"

Set the point gap .025 before you check the timing.
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