Starter just spins

Got a question about my starter. General info. My tractor was converted several years ago to 12V. with alternator. My problem is the old 8N sometimes over the winter would not even turn over. Tapped on the starter a few time and it was all good. Now that it is warmer the battery seems to be draining (new battery) and the starter will just spin but does not engage (sounds like a wine noise) Is this a bendix issue? It seems to be starter related to me. Any help????
 
Bendix failure is not unusual on 12v conversions. That's because you are using twice the current which means twice the torque. Pull the starter and replace the Bendix. If you've never pulled the starter post back for advice on that.
 
(quoted from post at 02:37:07 04/07/14) Twice the current????? How do you get that through cables half as big?

I can't type on this phone........ Ohms Law says if you double the voltage you double the current. And quadruple the wattage. Assuming a load, of course.
 
That doesn't make any sense at all. Double the voltage & half the current will get the job done. If the current is doubled, how does it go through smaller cables? Use 2 6 volt batteries in parallel, then connect them is series for 12 volts. The 12 volts will turn over an engine way faster on less current. How can the wattage get 4 times as much????? Sounds like you are getting something from nothing. You can only get the same wattage out of the same batteries no matter which way they are connected.
 
" That doesn't make any sense at all."

No need to take my word for it.

Just do the math.

I=E/R

6 volts, 2 ohms resistance = 3 amps.

12 volts, 2 ohms resistance = 6 amps.

Current doubles. Got it?

Next, power.

P=IxE

6 volts, 3 amps = 18 watts.

12 volts, 6 amps = 72 watts

Make sense now?
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 11:41:53 04/07/14) That doesn't make any sense at all. Double the voltage & half the current will get the job done. If the current is doubled, how does it go through smaller cables? Use 2 6 volt batteries in parallel, then connect them is series for 12 volts. The 12 volts will turn over an engine way faster on less current. How can the wattage get 4 times as much????? Sounds like you are getting something from nothing. You can only get the same wattage out of the same batteries no matter which way they are connected.
ruce is correct. ...and you are correct in that if you want to deliver the same power, you could design for double the voltage & half the current. How does double the current get through smaller cables? Allow me a parallel..........a 12GA wire is nominally rated for about 20-35 amperes, BUT it will carry over 200Amperes........for a short period just before becoming liquid. Wattage out of batteries? Yes, the battery will ultimately limit that, but far before that limit, the load will set the wattage. P(Wattage)=EI, I=E/R, then P=ExE/R.
Double E (2E), then P =2Ex2E/R=4E/R, hence, 4X the power by doubling voltage. HTH
 
(quoted from post at 08:41:53 04/07/14) That doesn't make any sense at all. Double the voltage & half the current will get the job done. If the current is doubled, how does it go through smaller cables? Use 2 6 volt batteries in parallel, then connect them is series for 12 volts. The 12 volts will turn over an engine way faster on less current. How can the wattage get 4 times as much????? Sounds like you are getting something from nothing. You can only get the same wattage out of the same batteries no matter which way they are connected.



makes perfect sense plug your own test numbers in and see for yourself
 
ok lets use 2 fully charged 6 volt batteries. voltage will be 6.3 or 2.1 per cell. Put a load test on to drop volts to 2 & amps will be about 100 or 200 watts per cell or 600 watts per battery. Hook those 2 batteries in parallel & you can draw 200 amps to drop the volts to 6. 1200 watts. Then hook them in series showing 12.6 volts. put a load test to 12 volts will only show 100 amps not 200. 12 volts x100 amps = 1200 amps. If you put a bigger load on to increase the amps, the volts will drop accordingly. You can't get 4 times the wattage by going from 6 to 12.
 
(quoted from post at 13:54:08 04/07/14) ok lets use 2 fully charged 6 volt batteries. voltage will be 6.3 or 2.1 per cell. Put a load test on to drop volts to 2 & amps will be about 100 or 200 watts per cell or 600 watts per battery. Hook those 2 batteries in parallel & you can draw 200 amps to drop the volts to 6. 1200 watts. Then hook them in series showing 12.6 volts. put a load test to 12 volts will only show 100 amps not 200. 12 volts x100 amps = 1200 amps. If you put a bigger load on to increase the amps, the volts will drop accordingly. You can't get 4 times the wattage by going from 6 to 12.
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
 
(quoted from post at 13:54:08 04/07/14) ok lets use 2 fully charged 6 volt batteries. voltage will be 6.3 or 2.1 per cell. Put a load test on to drop volts to 2 & amps will be about 100 or 200 watts per cell or 600 watts per battery. Hook those 2 batteries in parallel & you can draw 200 amps to drop the volts to 6. 1200 watts. Then hook them in series showing 12.6 volts. put a load test to 12 volts will only show 100 amps not 200. 12 volts x100 amps = 1200 amps. If you put a bigger load on to increase the amps, the volts will drop accordingly. You can't get 4 times the wattage by going from 6 to 12.

You are arguing with the wrong guy. He gave you a very clear statement of the engineering math - listen to what the man has to say (emphasis added by me):

Wattage out of batteries? Yes, the battery will [b:568186a7b0]ultimately[/b:568186a7b0] limit that, but [b:568186a7b0]far before that limit[/b:568186a7b0], the load will set the wattage.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 18:54:08 04/07/14) ok lets use 2 fully charged 6 volt batteries. voltage will be 6.3 or 2.1 per cell. Put a load test on to drop volts to 2 & amps will be about 100 or 200 watts per cell or 600 watts per battery. Hook those 2 batteries in parallel & you can draw 200 amps to drop the volts to 6. 1200 watts. Then hook them in series showing 12.6 volts. put a load test to 12 volts will only show 100 amps not 200. 12 volts x100 amps = 1200 amps. If you put a bigger load on to increase the amps, the volts will drop accordingly. You can't get 4 times the wattage by going from 6 to 12.

Do you really want to argue about the laws of physics? Just do the math.
 
I am not about to argue the laws of physics, but in the real world it doesn't work your way. I have been load testing batteries and starter systems for over 40 years. How many of you have a carbon pile load tester & know how to read it?? Another example. Take a tractor with a 6 volt battery. It will turn over & start. Take out the 6 volt & replace it with the same size 12 volt that fits in the case. Now you have twice the cells which are half as big. The starter spins it over way faster than the 6 volt can. Tell me how you can get double the amps out of cells half as big?????
 
(quoted from post at 16:44:45 04/07/14) I am not about to argue the laws of physics, but in the real world it doesn't work your way. I have been load testing batteries and starter systems for over 40 years. How many of you have a carbon pile load tester & know how to read it?? Another example. Take a tractor with a 6 volt battery. It will turn over & start. Take out the 6 volt & replace it with the same size 12 volt that fits in the case. Now you have twice the cells which are half as big. The starter spins it over way faster than the 6 volt can. Tell me how you can get double the amps out of cells half as big?????
b:3006f5b7de][color=red:3006f5b7de][/color:3006f5b7de]Yes, of course the laws of physics don't apply to the 'real world'. Score one for teddy.[/b:3006f5b7de]

[b:3006f5b7de][color=red:3006f5b7de][/color:3006f5b7de]Any technician can read the instructions & accomplish load testing in short order. Score zero for teddy.[/b:3006f5b7de]
[b:3006f5b7de][color=red:3006f5b7de][/color:3006f5b7de]Double amps out of cells half the size? A no brainer for any reputable battery maker, been doing it for years. Score zero for teddy.[/b:3006f5b7de]
So, it seems that there is nothing left to argue. I know that was all you were here for, so sorry to disappoint you. :p
 
(quoted from post at 16:44:45 04/07/14) I am not about to argue the laws of physics, but in the real world it doesn't work your way. I have been load testing batteries and starter systems for over 40 years. How many of you have a carbon pile load tester & know how to read it?? Another example. Take a tractor with a 6 volt battery. It will turn over & start. Take out the 6 volt & replace it with the same size 12 volt that fits in the case. Now you have twice the cells which are half as big. The starter spins it over way faster than the 6 volt can. Tell me how you can get double the amps out of cells half as big?????

Well you got the motor cranking speed part down. So what does physics tell you about the power being output?

[u:4c2da42235]DC Motor torgue vs speed[/u:4c2da42235]

TOH
 
" I am not about to argue the laws of physics, but in the real world it doesn't work your way"

Well yes, as a matter of fact, it does.

That carbon load tester, battery cell size....all of that......is governed by the laws of physics & basic electrical theory.

So lets start this conversation again.

Double the voltage, double the current.

Agree or disagree?

Double the current & double the voltage & the power quadruples. (under load)

Agree or disagree?

There's plenty in this world I do not understand.
That does not mean I'm stupid. Refusing to learn, however, does make me stupid.

And clearly, YOU do not understand basic electricity. And that's fine. There are 4 of us telling you that you are WRONG. The attached link will prove that you are WRONG if you do not want to take our word for it. Four of us are willing to help you understand these basics, but if you want to pump up and tell us your 40 years of testing batteries disproves basic electrical theory, then you may continue to live in ignorance.

But just don't walk to far to the west....you could fall of the edge of the earth.
Ohms Law Calculator
 
(quoted from post at 14:05:55 04/06/14) Bendix failure is not unusual on 12v conversions. That's because you are using twice the current which means twice the torque. Pull the starter and replace the Bendix. If you've never pulled the starter post back for advice on that.

Hi Bruce,
Not sure if it's ok to post on this thread, but I pulled my starter out on my 52' 8N so I can clean the block up to repaint it. Any tricks or advice on getting the starter back in?
Thanks for any help.
 
The starter has 3 major exterior components; front plate, barrel & rear plate. The 2 bolts that hold the starter on to the bell housing go through all three components & hold it all together.

To remove the starter, unscrew the bolts out of the block & put a nut on one of them. Otherwise, the starter comes apart. Not fatal, but not fun either. (tip # 36 at the link below) Then, loosen the two bolts holding the oil filter canister to the block, (it does not need to be removed) remove the dipstick, and keep the starter close to the block while pushing the front of it down and lifting the back up. Sometimes you have to remove the drain petcock as well.The bendix is behind the flywheel; your job is to get it over the flywheel.

Caution: while the starter is off, resist the temptation to screw with the bendix. If you extend the bendix, and it is not the OEM bendix w/ the big spring, you will have a hard time getting the starter installed.

To install the starter, keep it close to the block while pulling the front of it up and pushing the bendix back into the hole. The bendix has to go behind the flywheel; your job is to get it over the flywheel.

Lastly, while the starter is off, polish the block & all starter mating surfaces w/ sandpaper to insure a good electrical ground. First, clean the mating area between the barrel and rear plate. Then, clean the mating surfaces where the aluminum rear plate meets the bell housing. The starter's ground circuit is not only through the two long bolts but from the barrel to the rear plate & then to the bell housing as well.
75 Tips
 
No I don't agree with you. I just talked to a retired IH mechanic that agrees with me. Look at it this way. Take a 6 volt battery. It has 3 large cells. The same size 12 volt battery has 6 cells that are half as big as the ones in the 6 volt battery. Voltage is determined by the number of cells. Amperage is determined by the size of the cell or # of plates. You can't get double the amps out of cells that are half as big. I hate to say this, but 4 of you telling a lie does not make it the truth. If what you are saying were right, you would need cables twice as big to carry all that current . Instead they are smaller. In house wiring you have 10 times the volts but the fuse size is still determined by the wire size. 2 batteries of the same size will produce the same wattage. 6 volts = high amps & 12 volts at lower amps. You can't get something from nothing.
 
you are comparing old & new made batteries. But you still can't get double the amps out of a cell that is half as big no matter when it was built.
 
(quoted from post at 20:42:32 04/07/14) No I don't agree with you. I just talked to a retired IH mechanic that agrees with me. Look at it this way. Take a 6 volt battery. It has 3 large cells. The same size 12 volt battery has 6 cells that are half as big as the ones in the 6 volt battery. Voltage is determined by the number of cells. Amperage is determined by the size of the cell or # of plates. You can't get double the amps out of cells that are half as big. I hate to say this, but 4 of you telling a lie does not make it the truth. If what you are saying were right, you would need cables twice as big to carry all that current . Instead they are smaller. In house wiring you have 10 times the volts but the fuse size is still determined by the wire size. 2 batteries of the same size will produce the same wattage. 6 volts = high amps & 12 volts at lower amps. You can't get something from nothing.
he whole of your arguments are based upon 'beliefs' and numbers pulled out of 'thin air' with no supporting hard facts. You keep on with amp & small/large cells............a "belief". For some FACTS, go to Interstate battery, auto batteries, look up 1954 Chevy 6v & 1956 Ford 12v. CCA for the 6v is about 100amps less than the 12v. That is two. Knock yourself out, as they list hundreds.
Try dealing in FACTS, not beliefs, what some mechanic told you or anything except facts. I notice other inconsistencies, too, such as mixing 12v starters and 6v starters. Here in this thread we are dealing with 6v starters exclusively, albeit, some using 12v batteries and some using 6v batteries. Try to keep your comparisons relevant.
 
You are comparing a group 1 6 volt to a group 24F 12 volt, a much larger battery. CCA can vary that much just in the quality of the battery.
 
" I hate to say this, but 4 of you telling a lie does not make it the truth."

So, the 4 of us are liars?

Why? Why are we telling you lies?

What about the link I sent you?

Ohm's Law calculator. Did you look at that?

Click on it. See for yourself. Here it is again.
Ohms Law Calculator
 
Teddy, can you be confusing a circuit with say a demand? Sounds like you are talking about a motor that draws half the amps when you double the voltage??? While that is true, that doesn't speak of the electrical circuit, it speaks of the motor or demand.

And not being mean, but "half as big" and "size" don't really define anything. For instance: "But you still can't get double the amps out of a cell that is half as big no matter when it was built." I don't know what "half as big" means. "2 batteries of the same size will produce the same wattage." What is "size"? Ya just can't make scientific arguments with amorphous terms.

...and wire "size" does not dictate fuse "size". If that were true all the houses wired with aluminum wire would have (using your terms here) 'big size' fuses. :roll:
 
(quoted from post at 23:58:48 04/07/14) Teddy, can you be confusing a circuit with say a demand? Sounds like you are talking about a motor that draws half the amps when you double the voltage??? While that is true, that doesn't speak of the electrical circuit, it speaks of the motor or demand.

And not being mean, but "half as big" and "size" don't really define anything. For instance: "But you still can't get double the amps out of a cell that is half as big no matter when it was built." I don't know what "half as big" means. "2 batteries of the same size will produce the same wattage." What is "size"? Ya just can't make scientific arguments with amorphous terms.

...and wire "size" does not dictate fuse "size". If that were true all the houses wired with aluminum wire would have (using your terms here) 'big size' fuses. :roll:
avid, I'm afraid some are just lost causes. No desire to listen & learn, just cling to whatever predisposed ignorant 'beliefs' that they hold with no basis in fact. They never present facts, just side line arguments to try to make themselves look more learned than they are. Switch topics as evasive maneuver very regularly. They have nothing to do but to troll & try to get others involved in their arguments. Prime example here...........what was this thread about? Starter drives. Where did the troll try to take it? He should be ignored, which is what I am about to do. Should have done far earlier, as such isn't worth a comma or a period.
 
OK, lets look at it another way. Go to the tractor battery charts. Look up the size (dimensions ) of a 6 volt 500 amp battery. Then look up the size (dimensions) of a 12 volt 1000 amp battery. If what you are saying is true, they should be the same. Please post the results so we all can see.
 
(quoted from post at 06:01:40 04/08/14) OK, lets look at it another way. Go to the tractor battery charts. Look up the size (dimensions ) of a 6 volt 500 amp battery. Then look up the size (dimensions) of a 12 volt 1000 amp battery. If what you are saying is true, they should be the same. Please post the results so we all can see.

No Teddy - once again you digress. You are hung up on cell size and ultimate output capacity and stubbornly refuse to look at anything beyond that.

You are unwilling to acknowledge the fundamental electrical behavior of the starting circuit as a function of the voltage applied to the fixed resistance windings of a DC motor. And until you are willing to get beyond that point you are never going to really understand the basic physics of why the same motor spins the same engine faster at 12V than it does at 6V.

Physics is nothing more than a mathematical explanation of why things behave as they do in real life. The physics of DC motor control and operation has been well established and experimentally confirmed starting with Michael Faraday's early experiments (1821), Joseph Henry's invention of an oscillating motor in 1831, and William Sturgeons invention of the first real rotary (commutator) electric motor in 1832. The electrical principles they pioneered have been taught to engineers for nearly two centuries now and the result has been the development of a vast array of electric motors of all types that permeate our daily life.

Here is a simple lesson from the Physics Department at the University of Texas (JMOR's Alma Mater???) that explains current flow in a DC motor circuit. You don't need a PhD. in physics to understand it.

[u:b1623fc00e]The Direct Current Motor[/u:b1623fc00e]

That physics is EXACTLY how it works in real life and I'm pretty sure you and your carbon pile have not proven it to be wrong.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 13:23:05 04/06/14) Got a question about my starter. General info. My tractor was converted several years ago to 12V. with alternator. My problem is the old 8N sometimes over the winter would not even turn over. Tapped on the starter a few time and it was all good. Now that it is warmer the battery seems to be draining (new battery) and the starter will just spin but does not engage (sounds like a wine noise) Is this a bendix issue? It seems to be starter related to me. Any help????

Is it possible the battery is low, and not spinning the starter fast enough to engage the drive? No use overthinking it :p
 
I have absolutely nothing to add to this battery debate. but teddy a wise man once said - better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot, than open your mouth and prove it
 
Joe, this is the same(teddy52food) joker that awhile back
argued for days in support of a perpetual motion motion
machine with output greater than its input. That ought to tell
you something.
Mark Twain, "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag
you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
 
What???? How dare you hijack a hijacked thread and return to the very question asked in the first place??!! ;)

" Is it possible the battery is low, and not spinning the starter fast enough to engage the drive? "

Yes, that is a possibility.

You need a strong battery to:

1. Close the solenoid

2. Spin the starter

3. Engage the bendix

4. Provide voltage to the coil.

As the battery gets weaker, the first thing to fail is your spark. If the battery is almost totally dead, all you will hear is the solenoid clicking.

The more current you use to spin the starter, the less you have for the ignition.

So the battery could be weak enough that it will spin the starter motor but not engage the bendix.
75 Tips
 

OK, tnx to Albert Knowles, I now recall Teddy: " this is the same(teddy52food) joker that awhile back argued for days in support of a perpetual motion motion machine with output greater than its input. "

So, I think we are trying to teach a pig to sing; it just wastes our time & annoys the pig.

But, it is eye-opening to see such a public display of abject ignorance.

It's not the lack of basic electrical knowledge (we see that a lot) but the total & complete rejection of actually learning something that conflicts w/ his beliefs.

Maybe we shouldn't tell him where the sun goes at night......
 
He must work where 36coupe did all his electrical research.

too bad the research material tyhey studdied was incorrect. ;)
 

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