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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

Re: Starter just spins

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souNdguy

04-07-2014 09:53:05
166.205.55.26



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Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see



makes perfect sense plug your own test numbers in and see for yourself




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teddy52food

04-07-2014 10:54:08
184.94.175.179



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to souNdguy, 04-07-2014 09:53:05  
ok lets use 2 fully charged 6 volt batteries. voltage will be 6.3 or 2.1 per cell. Put a load test on to drop volts to 2 & amps will be about 100 or 200 watts per cell or 600 watts per battery. Hook those 2 batteries in parallel & you can draw 200 amps to drop the volts to 6. 1200 watts. Then hook them in series showing 12.6 volts. put a load test to 12 volts will only show 100 amps not 200. 12 volts x100 amps = 1200 amps. If you put a bigger load on to increase the amps, the volts will drop accordingly. You can't get 4 times the wattage by going from 6 to 12.

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Bruce(VA)

04-07-2014 13:04:07
70.208.134.249



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to teddy52food, 04-07-2014 10:54:08  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Do you really want to argue about the laws of physics? Just do the math.



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teddy52food

04-07-2014 13:44:45
184.94.175.179



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to Bruce(VA), 04-07-2014 13:04:07  
I am not about to argue the laws of physics, but in the real world it doesn't work your way. I have been load testing batteries and starter systems for over 40 years. How many of you have a carbon pile load tester & know how to read it?? Another example. Take a tractor with a 6 volt battery. It will turn over & start. Take out the 6 volt & replace it with the same size 12 volt that fits in the case. Now you have twice the cells which are half as big. The starter spins it over way faster than the 6 volt can. Tell me how you can get double the amps out of cells half as big?????

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Bruce (VA)

04-07-2014 15:46:20
24.125.183.11



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to teddy52food, 04-07-2014 13:44:45  
" I am not about to argue the laws of physics, but in the real world it doesn't work your way"

Well yes, as a matter of fact, it does.

That carbon load tester, battery cell size....all of that......is governed by the laws of physics & basic electrical theory.

So lets start this conversation again.

Double the voltage, double the current.

Agree or disagree?

Double the current & double the voltage & the power quadruples. (under load)

Agree or disagree?

There's plenty in this world I do not understand.

That does not mean I'm stupid. Refusing to learn, however, does make me stupid.
And clearly, YOU do not understand basic electricity. And that's fine. There are 4 of us telling you that you are WRONG. The attached link will prove that you are WRONG if you do not want to take our word for it. Four of us are willing to help you understand these basics, but if you want to pump up and tell us your 40 years of testing batteries disproves basic electrical theory, then you may continue to live in ignorance.

But just don't walk to far to the west....you could fall of the edge of the earth.
Ohms Law Calculator
This post was edited by Bruce (VA) at 16:30:42 04/07/14.

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soundguy

04-08-2014 15:27:03
207.30.46.70



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to Bruce (VA), 04-07-2014 15:46:20  
He must work where 36coupe did all his electrical research.

too bad the research material tyhey studdied was incorrect. ;)



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teddy52food

04-08-2014 03:01:40
184.94.175.179



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to Bruce (VA), 04-07-2014 15:46:20  
OK, lets look at it another way. Go to the tractor battery charts. Look up the size (dimensions ) of a 6 volt 500 amp battery. Then look up the size (dimensions) of a 12 volt 1000 amp battery. If what you are saying is true, they should be the same. Please post the results so we all can see.



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TheOldHokie

04-08-2014 05:15:58
71.176.191.252



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to teddy52food, 04-08-2014 03:01:40  

teddy52food said: (quoted from post at 06:01:40 04/08/14) OK, lets look at it another way. Go to the tractor battery charts. Look up the size (dimensions ) of a 6 volt 500 amp battery. Then look up the size (dimensions) of a 12 volt 1000 amp battery. If what you are saying is true, they should be the same. Please post the results so we all can see.


No Teddy - once again you digress. You are hung up on cell size and ultimate output capacity and stubbornly refuse to look at anything beyond that.

You are unwilling to acknowledge the fundamental electrical behavior of the starting circuit as a function of the voltage applied to the fixed resistance windings of a DC motor. And until you are willing to get beyond that point you are never going to really understand the basic physics of why the same motor spins the same engine faster at 12V than it does at 6V.
Physics is nothing more than a mathematical explanation of why things behave as they do in real life. The physics of DC motor control and operation has been well established and experimentally confirmed starting with Michael Faraday's early experiments (1821), Joseph Henry's invention of an oscillating motor in 1831, and William Sturgeons invention of the first real rotary (commutator) electric motor in 1832. The electrical principles they pioneered have been taught to engineers for nearly two centuries now and the result has been the development of a vast array of electric motors of all types that permeate our daily life.

Here is a simple lesson from the Physics Department at the University of Texas (JMOR's Alma Mater???) that explains current flow in a DC motor circuit. You don't need a PhD. in physics to understand it.

The Direct Current Motor

That physics is EXACTLY how it works in real life and I'm pretty sure you and your carbon pile have not proven it to be wrong.
TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 09:04:41 04/08/14 2 times.

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Bruce (VA)

04-08-2014 06:47:33
24.125.183.11



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to TheOldHokie, 04-08-2014 05:15:58  
OK, tnx to Albert Knowles, I now recall Teddy: " this is the same(teddy52food) joker that awhile back argued for days in support of a perpetual motion motion machine with output greater than its input. "

So, I think we are trying to teach a pig to sing; it just wastes our time & annoys the pig.

But, it is eye-opening to see such a public display of abject ignorance.

It's not the lack of basic electrical knowledge (we see that a lot) but the total & complete rejection of actually learning something that conflicts w/ his beliefs.

Maybe we shouldn't tell him where the sun goes at night......

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teddy52food

04-07-2014 17:42:32
184.94.175.179



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to Bruce (VA), 04-07-2014 15:46:20  
No I don't agree with you. I just talked to a retired IH mechanic that agrees with me. Look at it this way. Take a 6 volt battery. It has 3 large cells. The same size 12 volt battery has 6 cells that are half as big as the ones in the 6 volt battery. Voltage is determined by the number of cells. Amperage is determined by the size of the cell or # of plates. You can't get double the amps out of cells that are half as big. I hate to say this, but 4 of you telling a lie does not make it the truth. If what you are saying were right, you would need cables twice as big to carry all that current . Instead they are smaller. In house wiring you have 10 times the volts but the fuse size is still determined by the wire size. 2 batteries of the same size will produce the same wattage. 6 volts = high amps & 12 volts at lower amps. You can't get something from nothing.

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Bruce (VA)

04-07-2014 18:43:03
24.125.183.11



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to teddy52food, 04-07-2014 17:42:32  
" I hate to say this, but 4 of you telling a lie does not make it the truth."

So, the 4 of us are liars?

Why? Why are we telling you lies?

What about the link I sent you?

Ohm's Law calculator. Did you look at that?

Click on it. See for yourself. Here it is again.

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JMOR

04-07-2014 17:54:40
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to teddy52food, 04-07-2014 17:42:32  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeThe whole of your arguments are based upon 'beliefs' and numbers pulled out of 'thin air' with no supporting hard facts. You keep on with amp & small/large cells............a "belief". For some FACTS, go to Interstate battery, auto batteries, look up 1954 Chevy 6v & 1956 Ford 12v. CCA for the 6v is about 100amps less than the 12v. That is two. Knock yourself out, as they list hundreds.

Try dealing in FACTS, not beliefs, what some mechanic told you or anything except facts. I notice other inconsistencies, too, such as mixing 12v starters and 6v starters. Here in this thread we are dealing with 6v starters exclusively, albeit, some using 12v batteries and some using 6v batteries. Try to keep your comparisons relevant.

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teddy52food

04-07-2014 18:42:18
184.94.175.179



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to JMOR, 04-07-2014 17:54:40  
You are comparing a group 1 6 volt to a group 24F 12 volt, a much larger battery. CCA can vary that much just in the quality of the battery.



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TheOldHokie

04-07-2014 14:43:45
71.176.191.252



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to teddy52food, 04-07-2014 13:44:45  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Well you got the motor cranking speed part down. So what does physics tell you about the power being output?

DC Motor torgue vs speed

TOH



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JMOR

04-07-2014 14:25:35
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to teddy52food, 04-07-2014 13:44:45  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see[/color:3006f5b7de]Yes, of course the laws of physics don't apply to the 'real world'. Score one for teddy.

[color=red:3006f5b7de]Any technician can read the instructions & accomplish load testing in short order. Score zero for teddy.

[color=red:3006f5b7de][/color:3006f5b7de]Double amps out of cells half the size? A no brainer for any reputable battery maker, been doing it for years. Score zero for teddy.

So, it seems that there is nothing left to argue. I know that was all you were here for, so sorry to disappoint you. :P

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teddy52food

04-07-2014 17:49:53
184.94.175.179



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to JMOR, 04-07-2014 14:25:35  
you are comparing old & new made batteries. But you still can't get double the amps out of a cell that is half as big no matter when it was built.



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TheOldHokie

04-07-2014 11:34:20
71.176.191.252



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to teddy52food, 04-07-2014 10:54:08  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

You are arguing with the wrong guy. He gave you a very clear statement of the engineering math - listen to what the man has to say (emphasis added by me):

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

TOH



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JMOR

04-07-2014 11:08:43
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Starter just spins in reply to teddy52food, 04-07-2014 10:54:08  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:



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