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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

9N will NOT Start!

Author  [Modern View]
Ray PA

02-12-2014 21:12:09
151.213.56.126



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Hello Gents,
New contributor here. First thank you all, Iíve gotten a lot of good info from your past posts which have helped a lot but now Iím stumped. I have had my 9N (S/N 85732) about 10 years now and it has been getting progressively harder to start over the last 2 years or so. Past starts have required cleaning or replacing points each time I ran it (points are not burned and have no visible deposits on them?) and jumping with 12 volt battery. Last successful start was back in August. Since then Iíve put in 20+ hours of tinkering including installing a 6V pos ground Pertronix Elec Ignition (EI) with no luck. Tractor is stock except for electronic ignition (front mount coil). I have fuel, spark and compression but still will not fire (or even cough!) Iím no professional wrench but I consider myself an adequate shade tree mechanic. Here is what Iíve tried:

1. Read 75 tips (great info)

2. New battery (Deka)

3. 3 New cables all 0 gage or heavier (pos, neg bat and starter cables)

4. New rotor and cap

5. 2 New coils ( Resistance; .8 (original), 1.2, and 2.1 ohms)

6. New plugs

7. New condenser & points (after failed to start with EI)

Results:

8. Starter turns over motor normally (12 volt jump achieves 1/3 higher rpm)

9. Good Spark at all cylinders with test plug set at ľ inch and with stock gapped plugs (slightly better spark with 12 V crank)

10. Good fuel at carb drain (steady stream for 30+ seconds)

11. No luck with starting fluid sprayed into carb or directly into #2 or #3 cylinder

12. Static timing checked correct at ľĒ past upper bolt hole

13. Suction at carb and compression at plug holes when cranked (no compression gage but blew my finger off hole)

14. With EI, 6.15 V at ignition module, 2.34 V at top of coil

Iím tired of cutting my field with a scythe (I really did!) and shoveling my driveway while the 9N sits in the barn. Any ideas (or offers to take it off my hands!) are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Ray

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2n4000

02-16-2014 06:59:27
108.196.88.68



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-12-2014 21:12:09  
I've heard that EI is useless without a hot battery,and witnessed it for myself.



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NNP

02-15-2014 06:06:28
67.240.154.26



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-12-2014 21:12:09  
While I worked for decades without one,

using old plugs, meters, grabbing wires, etc.

an unnamed poster who I listen to, finally stressed it enough

to make me listen......I bought a spark checker
Now I keep one handy always.

no start?, quit while running?

spark checker goes on an installed plug, hook the spark plug wire to it. crank it and watch...

tells me if spark is occurring in the cylinder where it counts.

No? go thru the ignition until I find the problem.

yes? go thru the fuel system

(I also have a draincock on the carb bowl)

trouble-shooting now takes seconds

I've posted before on a JD that sparked plugs very nicely that were laying on the deck. But, the inline spark checker showed a pathetic random spark in cylinder.

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W_B

02-14-2014 07:14:44
155.188.247.24



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-12-2014 21:12:09  
I have issues with my 9N when I try to start it on 6V and it's cold out. Usually end up fouling the plugs and then it won't start even with a 12V jump. Going fresh at it with 12V help it will even run on 3 cylinders like it did the other night, once it warmed up the 4th came on line and it smoothed out. I have to agree that there is something being declared "right" that isn't. These old beasts are simple enough that when it is all truly right it will go. Keep at it and let us know what you find.

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SELL...John,PA

02-13-2014 13:25:50
209.163.118.65



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-12-2014 21:12:09  
Where are ya in PA???????

When I come with trailer......prepare YOURSELF for cash in YOUR hand// CHHEAP. THOUGH.

John,PA



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Ray PA

02-13-2014 19:14:11
151.213.58.185



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to SELL...John,PA, 02-13-2014 13:25:50  
John, I'm in Bechtelsville. Shoot me an email if your interested. rtcoachie@dejazzd.com



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OK..John,PA

02-14-2014 03:30:21
209.163.120.188



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-13-2014 19:14:11  
Let me check my "road atlas"..ain't ever been there. I usually deduct $1.00 per mile from asking price. Once in my shop, maybe YOU want to buy her back. Restored to factory spec's. Repaint is optional.


CC: Cameron Riley, CO. John,PA



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HCooke

02-13-2014 06:53:30
70.195.68.12



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-12-2014 21:12:09  
What is the temperature? Maybe warming up the manifold would help volatize the gas. Also as JMOR said the plugs may be fouled.



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JMOR

02-13-2014 06:44:28
72.181.173.171



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Bruce Bushnell, 02-12-2014 21:12:09  
Seems like you have covered most bases. That said, fuel to & out carb drain does not mean any fuel reaches cylinders. One way to test that is to use starting fluid, which you did, BUT, if previous starting attempts flooded the engine & washed down the plugs with liquid gasoline, then the contaminants will often leak off the spark energy without producing a spark. Fresh plugs or burn existing plugs off with a propane torch & re-try starting fluid with gasoline valve turned OFF.

Your numbers look nominally OK, either points or EI. You have a good spark, so no need to root around in that area anyway.

One uncovered base is likely a long shot, but I don't know the total history since last ran. That is when is the spark occurring? Yes, I saw the 1/4 inch timing note, but there is still plenty of opportunity for the spark to NOT be occurring at TDC-compression stroke. Need to verify that. A starting point would be that wires in distributor are CCW, 1243 and cylinders are numbered 1234 radiator toward steering wheel.

[URL=http://s192.photobucket.com/user/JMOR_photo/media/Ign/fire_order-1.jpg.html][/URL]
This post was edited by JMOR at 06:57:57 02/13/14.

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Ray PA

02-13-2014 07:23:12
151.213.56.126



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to JMOR, 02-13-2014 06:44:28  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Thanks Guys, I did verify the correct firing order and have tried both burning the plugs and brand new ones. I havent manually verified TDC (old screw driver in the cylinder trick i guess?) but will. Two questions:

1. Have you ever heard of the camshaft gear stripping/skipping/breaking? There have been no unusual noises while cranking etc but just a thought

2. Is it worth trying to adjust the static timing so it's significantly before or after TDC? as I recall (but not sure)original points were adjusted way up (ie advanced) almost to limit of adj travel

BTW, it's a balmy 22 deg here today, 15 deg warmer than last week or so. Maybe the heater???

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JMOR

02-13-2014 07:36:24
72.181.173.171



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-13-2014 07:23:12  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeYes, gears jump, slip, shear, etc. Don't worry with timing as far as run or not run, as the range of adjustment on these are so limited that they will run at just about any setting you try.

No screwdriver in cylinder as spark plug is over valves & not over piston. With a mirror & good light though you can observe the valves & even probe them with a stiff wire.

[URL=http://s192.photobucket.com/user/JMOR_photo/media/Engine/sparkplug_location.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://s192.photobucket.com/user/JMOR_photo/media/Engine/combustion_chamber.jpg.html][/URL]

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Ray PA

02-13-2014 08:09:09
151.213.56.126



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to JMOR, 02-13-2014 07:36:24  
Thanks JMOR, Henry sure made troubleshooting this "simple" tractor quite hard!! I guess next step would be a compression check with actual gage (eliminate valve timing posibility) and verifying spark at TDC +/-. Can you "feel" the piston move with a stiff wire? Otherwise how do you manually verify TDC???



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JMOR

02-13-2014 10:41:33
72.181.173.171



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-13-2014 08:09:09  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeCompression test can be informative. Wire to feel piston for TDC is "iffy" & you will most likely feel that you can't be sure trying that method. Wire has to be snaked thru hole around edge of cylinder & is subject to movement by valves. Pee poor method. Generally if there is a cam/crank timing problem , it is gross, not just a few degrees one way or another, so simply 'carefully' & as 'slowly' as possible, feel for beginning of compression & then for end of compression. Then look to see if rotor is pointing at least generally toward #1 at distributor. I can give you a full 6 or 7 methods of finding TDC-compression with varying degrees of precision, but most all are too much trouble, take too long, etc. Point is that close is generally good enough, since one cam/crank gear tooth will change ign timing by 16.36 degrees. If gear problems result in such misalignment so as to make it not run, it will likely be large enough that you will eyeball that by observing rotor position. You can try multiple observations until you feel confident that you have a good average that either looks OK or not.

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Ray PA

02-13-2014 19:12:52
151.213.58.185



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to JMOR, 02-13-2014 10:41:33  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Found something interesting on the compression check but it doesn't seem to me it would prevent it from starting. cylinders 1,2,3 hit around 90 psi but 4 was only 35 psi. Obviously problems there but it should still fire on 1,2,3. I will try the autolight plugs but if the H-12s are already sparking I don't see what difference it will make. thoughts??

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JMOR

02-14-2014 07:01:12
72.181.173.171



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-13-2014 19:12:52  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeAgree, should start & run on three, but you will have to address 35 eventually. Different brand plugs won't make a non runner run, but different fresh plugs of any brand might. What are the odds of buying 4 plugs & getting 4 bad plugs? Even if a couple were OK, it would fire. There is more that you haven't found yet, or more likely something that you have declared OK that isn't.

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Ray PA

02-15-2014 07:02:36
151.213.58.185



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to JMOR, 02-14-2014 07:01:12  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

OK, thanks to all for the suggestions. One last way out there thought, is it possible the plugs are NOT grounding when screwed in? There is some rust around the plug hole but threads look ok. I'll take the following steps and let you all know:

1. Stiff wire chk for TDC

2. Try adv/retarding timing to limits

3. Spark checker (if I can find one)

4. Wait till Friday (supposed to be 50 deg here, if starts then block heater prob best winter solution)

5. Recheck elec/fuel systems

6. Push it off a Cliff!!

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Ray PA

02-13-2014 11:26:04
208.101.142.238



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to JMOR, 02-13-2014 10:41:33  
I'll try the compression check and feel for TDC and get back to you but probably not till tomorrow. Got to go to work now. Thanks all, keep the ideas coming



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Jerrybigrig

02-13-2014 04:28:28
66.87.90.184



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-12-2014 21:12:09  
Check for voltage drop between ign start side and hot wire going into coil ......you hold meter between start or run side of se and hot wiwe of coil and have someone else crank over eng and see if you have near battery volts (good)or none(bad) if bad look for broken or loose connection .



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Ray PA

02-13-2014 05:47:07
151.213.56.126



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Jerrybigrig, 02-13-2014 04:28:28  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
This time with the attachment!!



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JMOR

02-13-2014 05:38:44
72.181.173.171



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Jerrybigrig, 02-13-2014 04:28:28  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeOne of my pet peeves. People assume that whatever they are familiar with transfers to any other tractor out there, so they provide some supposedly helpful hint that is not only NOT helpful, but most likely confuses the issue or at best wastes the troubleshooter's time. Here, there is NO SUCH WIRE as he is being directed to check, i.e., from ignition switch to coil. Such simply does not exist where EI is installed on a 6v, POS gnd N tractor. You are not alone. Probably see it at least weekly! That is one of several reasons that I ask so many questions & do my best to avoid 'answering' questions where I do not KNOW what is being discussed. That is correct, I don't assume that an engine, an ign, a tractor, a truck, etc. is a generic engine, ign, tractor, truck, where one size fits all.

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Jerrybigrig

02-13-2014 08:27:18
66.87.89.8



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to JMOR, 02-13-2014 05:38:44  
Hey....I just jumped in trying to help....I don't know specifics to this particular tractor ---- didn't mean to get ya peaved off



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Ray PA

02-13-2014 05:26:04
151.213.56.126



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Jerrybigrig, 02-13-2014 04:28:28  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Thanks Jerry. With the points system installed I've followed the attached Ignition Resistance Test and came up with nominally "normal" results everywhere. I didn't try it while cranking the motor but it seems to me if you go from ign sw to coil (top contact) accross the resistor you should get 3V+ drop. What am I missing?

Also with Elec Ign installed, polarity is reversed by design. ie. neg lead to ign modual (6V) then from coil post through ballast resistor to pos ground. In this case I get 6V at ign modual and 2.75V at top of coil?

I'll try the cranking test but first I have to shovel the new 8 inches of snow to get to the barn!!

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2n4000

02-13-2014 03:24:14
108.196.88.68



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-12-2014 21:12:09  
didn't see anything about weak sister ignition switch



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Ray PA

02-13-2014 05:07:54
151.213.56.126



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to 2n4000, 02-13-2014 03:24:14  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I've just been jumping the ign sw to eliminate that possibility but given I have good spark at the plugs I don't see how that could be it. Still appreciate the ideas though! Thanks



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old

02-13-2014 08:05:16
209.86.226.56



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-13-2014 05:07:54  
You need a good spark that jumps a gap of a 1/4 inch or more. Compression over 90PSI and fuel. So how is the compression?? How about the air cleaner when was the last time you cleaned it??



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Ray PA

02-13-2014 08:12:09
151.213.56.126



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to old, 02-13-2014 08:05:16  
Good 1/4 inch spark with test plug at each cylinder. Air cleaner probably dirty but right now it is disconnected at carb for troubleshooting. Carb is pulling air in directly from atmoshere.



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old

02-13-2014 08:24:12
209.86.226.56



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-13-2014 08:12:09  
If you put your hand over the air intake of the carb do you get a good suction and do you get gas on your hand when doing so?? Need a good suction there for them to run since that is what pulls the fuel to the plugs



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Ray PA

02-13-2014 08:27:22
151.213.56.126



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to old, 02-13-2014 08:24:12  
Yes, good suction at carb when cranking. I could probably pull my hand away but it would take a good tug. I'm thinking more spark timing at this point though because it will not even cough with the starting fluid etc.



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old

02-13-2014 08:40:32
209.86.226.56



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-13-2014 08:27:22  
When was the last time you replaced the plugs?? You have the auto lite 437s in it and are they good and clean. Timing does not just go out and if the points are set right at 0.015 timing should be close enough to run



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Ray PA

02-13-2014 11:23:58
208.101.142.238



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to old, 02-13-2014 08:40:32  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I had the H 12s available. Tried them in 3 days ago. Timing was disturbed due to EI/points swapout.



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old

02-13-2014 13:33:58
209.86.226.57



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 Re: 9N will NOT Start! in reply to Ray PA, 02-13-2014 11:23:58  
Those H-12s may be where your problems are. I have found many of the Champs now days to be bad right out of the box



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