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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar

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tom888fish

02-11-2014 11:04:47
148.168.40.121



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On my 8N, the previous owner used the horizontal DB w/ a 2" ball to haul a 4x8 trailer for hauling wood out of the woods. If I want to skid logs in addition to, or instead of, am I OK hooking to a clevis pinned through the horizontal? Or should I set up with a swinging draw bar? My only concern is I don't understand the strength differences between the two setups. In general, the swinging looks better for a trailer, though I'd have to buy the SDB and limiter. It looked like the local TSC had at least the SDB. Not sure if they have the pin that comes up from the underside, which seems like its an 8N specialty part? The clevis is mounted to the tractor (under PTO). Thoughts?

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gears

02-13-2014 05:51:31
204.11.186.190



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
Royce, I've got that same stay bar!



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KirK-NJ

02-13-2014 05:12:36
184.6.216.141



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
This topic has been an interesting conversation but no matter which method you choose please know you limitations and be careful. Don't try to pull more weight then your tractor can handle.

Kirk



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NNP

02-13-2014 03:54:22
67.240.154.26



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
[quote="Kirk-NJ"](quoted from post at 04:01:27 02/13/14) I understand the geometry and pulling from a drawbar would be better if you can get the nose of the log off the ground. When using a farm tractor to skid trees its suppose to have a lower impact on the property. Skidding timber with the drawbar without getting the nose off the ground will dig it causing ruts and catch the front of the log on roots and rocks. Using the drawbar method you will also be cutting a lot of inbedded dirt with your chain saw back at the landing. Dirt dulls blades fast.

Years ago they use to make some sort of plastic nose cone to put over the front of the log and guys use to uses old car hoods to put under the front and even cut the front of the log to a kind of point but other than that I haven't heard anybody talking about how you keep the front of the log off the ground with the drawbar method.

I have a box blade I also use to skid which is also handy to push logs around the landing. Then move with my forklift or one arm loader with the manure bucket for cutting or loading.

I have used this method for years but I'm still open to suggestion for better ideas.

Kirk
I've used the old hood idea with my 4-wheeler at camp.

Tractor, I use a box blade or blade, chain the log to it, lift just a little and go. If something goes wrong, the blade banging the ground gives you a second to hit the clutch.

Best is a slip scoop facing rearward, back under the log nose

lift just a little, chain it and go.

A neighbor has a cut down boom pole with a log grapple, works good. big logs he uses it to lift some, and also chains the log to the under belly drawbar to pull

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Kirk-NJ

02-13-2014 04:58:46
184.6.216.141



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to NNP, 02-13-2014 03:54:22  

I have tried the log grapple off the 3pt on my 340 IH industrial and not a fan at all. The log can swing back and forth. That's why I like the box blade. you just back up to the log, put a chocker chain around it and when you lift the log it restes on the face of the blade. I have also try the dirt scoop and it does work but getting the nose of the log into the scoop seem to be a bit of a problem. When you chain and lift the log it always seems to hit the wrong spot on the edge of the scoop than have to drop and try to reposition it. I have aslo held the rope to drop the scoop while rasing and getting the log to go right in is a hit and miss at best. Kirk

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Billybuck

02-12-2014 19:04:32
70.192.199.170



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
I use both Old's and Kirk's approach together, by attaching chain or cable to swinging drawbar pin under belly(no bar installed) then over 3pth drawbar to log. This allows me to raise the front end of the log, which I believe very important, but does not allow the log to raise the 3pth drawbar position on its own as the chain exerts only down pressure on the bar.



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Frank in VT

02-12-2014 18:32:42
50.137.113.193



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
With Kirk NJ on the logging set up. 30 plus years here and front of log off the ground is always safer. The risk of the front catching a root, rock etc is real... And much more sudden than the subtle loading that occurs as you start the pull.



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Lynn Patrick

02-12-2014 11:44:32
208.68.113.24



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
Red Rock Mfg also sells a swinging DB that uses the 3 point cross drawbar & extends for easier hook-up.



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Royse

02-12-2014 05:48:08
68.77.236.5



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
Stay bars help, but I wouldn't rely on them to stop it.

Also, if you decide to use the stay bars turn off your PTO or

chain the Touch Control lever down so you can't raise the 3 PT.

Heavier stay bars could break something else.



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jennifer408

02-12-2014 05:35:19
67.142.162.23



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
just don't do this





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old

02-12-2014 11:59:32
209.86.226.32



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to jennifer408, 02-12-2014 05:35:19  
That draw bar looks like one that is a farm made one that did not bolt up under the transmission like the good ones do and that is one reason that happened it was not made as it should have been made



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DGinVT

02-12-2014 06:31:53
99.197.64.56



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to jennifer408, 02-12-2014 05:35:19  
Jennifer408. What did you pull or do the break out the rear end? Never have seen one quite like that.



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jennifer408

02-12-2014 09:03:17
67.142.162.23



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to DGinVT, 02-12-2014 06:31:53  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

this didn't happen to me, i saw it on another site and saved the pics to share with other folks. they said they were just pulling a pile of brush.



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DGinVT

02-12-2014 11:45:37
99.196.32.58



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to jennifer408, 02-12-2014 09:03:17  
The pulling of brush?? I believe what you are saying but that must have been a lot heavier that brush.



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oldtanker

02-12-2014 10:33:51
66.228.255.116



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to jennifer408, 02-12-2014 09:03:17  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

More like hitting it a dead run trying to jerk it out is what I think.

Rick



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jennifer408

02-12-2014 16:27:36
67.142.162.20



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to oldtanker, 02-12-2014 10:33:51  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

yea, it looks like he had a 40' chain, put it in third and gave it the gas lol :)



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jennifer408

02-12-2014 16:29:27
67.142.162.20



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to jennifer408, 02-12-2014 16:27:36  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing :)



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DGinVT

02-12-2014 11:48:23
99.196.32.58



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to oldtanker, 02-12-2014 10:33:51  
It had to have been a dead run pull!! Lucky the machine didn't flip



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NNP

02-12-2014 05:25:42
67.240.154.26



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
another vote for spending the money to add the under belly drawbar kit that TOH and Royse have pictured.

That and the lift arm drawbar will get all your jobs done.

You will need both for differing jobs.

Like said, pulling from the under belly drawbar is what it is designed for.

too much pull will spin the tires rather than flipping,

just like at the tractor pulls.

(of course, there are owners that can still flip them...)

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ASEguy

02-12-2014 02:28:08
24.207.160.166



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
Another option is the quick hitch. I used one several weeks ago to pull a load of wood off my property. It worked well for me in that situation, but my ground is fairly level where I had the trailer. The guy backed into my driveway and dropped the trailer, I hooked up, drove to the woods, they filled it I adjusted the quick hitch with the 3 point according to the weight and pulled out. Worked great.

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Colin King

02-11-2014 17:39:31
67.233.242.45



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
Another advantage to the swinging drawbar that I don't see listed is that a lot of your 3pt equipment can be used while the draw bar is on the tractor. Not all, but a lot. My draw bar only comes off if I have to use the mower. Stays on if I'm disking, plowing, or cultivating.

Colin, MN



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Ultradog MN

02-11-2014 14:57:02
174.20.239.172



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
An underaxle type drawbar is superior to the horizontal one that goes on your lift arms for a couple of reasons.
It carries the load closer to the rear end of the tractor. Is easier to install and remove than the 3 point type. Is stronger. And is safer to use.



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Royse

02-11-2014 14:41:02
69.36.49.186



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  
YT sells the kit. Part on the left bolts around the PTO, part on
the right mounts under the rear end, drawbar slides through the

slot in the first part and attaches to the one under the rear end.

Here's a Link



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Kirk-NJ

02-11-2014 14:29:10
184.6.216.141



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  

Here's is one of my rigs for skidding timber. I also use a box blade. The key is to get the nose of the timber off the ground so it's not digging in. Common sence should be used when skidding timber. If you don't have any don't skid.

Kirk



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old

02-11-2014 15:37:12
209.86.226.19



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Kirk-NJ, 02-11-2014 14:29:10  
A set up like that can still get a novice in big trouble very fast. Unless you have a lot of front end weight that can still cause a flip over real fast. And I sure the heck would not recommend it to any body. I know over the years I have had too many close calls and I have been doing the tractor stuff for 30 plus years



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Kirk-NJ

02-11-2014 16:43:17
184.6.216.141



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to old, 02-11-2014 15:37:12  
Old,
My front end is weighted down. I have been skidding logs for years without a problem. This year, since the The price of wood was fair, I send 152 trees to the mill off my property. The is not my first time at the rodeo. My point was that dragging a log with the nose not off the ground could dig in and catch on something that might indeed flip the tractor over.
Caution should be used at all times when skidding.

Kirk

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Ultradog MN

02-12-2014 09:41:10
174.20.239.172



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Kirk-NJ, 02-11-2014 16:43:17  
Kirk,
I know you are a veteran operator and I would not hesitate to be anywhere and everywhere around a tractor with you operating it.
And I trust you have pulled a lot of logs with that rig.
But I'm going to have to side with Old on this one. You are pulling from a much higher point with that setup than you would from an under axle drawbar and thus it is not as safe and will not pull as much.
It really is just basic geometry after all.
It is far more difficult to flip a tractor pulling frum an under axle drawbar. The tires will usually spin or if heavily ballasted it will kill the engine before it will rear.
Just my 2 cents.

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Kirk-NJ

02-13-2014 03:01:27
184.6.216.141



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Ultradog MN, 02-12-2014 09:41:10  

I understand the geometry and pulling from a drawbar would be better if you can get the nose of the log off the ground. When using a farm tractor to skid trees its suppose to have a lower impact on the property. Skidding timber with the drawbar without getting the nose off the ground will dig it causing ruts and catch the front of the log on roots and rocks. Using the drawbar method you will also be cutting a lot of inbedded dirt with your chain saw back at the landing. Dirt dulls blades fast.
Years ago they use to make some sort of plastic nose cone to put over the front of the log and guys use to uses old car hoods to put under the front and even cut the front of the log to a kind of point but other than that I haven't heard anybody talking about how you keep the front of the log off the ground with the drawbar method.
I have a box blade I also use to skid which is also handy to push logs around the landing. Then move with my forklift or one arm loader with the manure bucket for cutting or loading.
I have used this method for years but I'm still open to suggestion for better ideas.

Kirk

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Ultradog MN

02-13-2014 05:56:34
174.20.239.172



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Kirk-NJ, 02-13-2014 03:01:27  
I know it's not always possible to do but if you use a very short chain connection to the drawbar - like a foot long or so then when you pull forward it will lift the front end of the log.
I know you know this but there are a lot of newbies on this forum who don't.



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old

02-11-2014 17:08:33
209.86.226.27



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Kirk-NJ, 02-11-2014 16:43:17  
That is why I said I would not recommend it to a novice which this guy sure as heck seems to be. I too have been doing logs and other such things for decades but to show something to a novice with out filling blanks like having say 500lbs on the front is asking them to get out and do something dumb. And no just jumping on you just pointing things out



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Kirk-NJ

02-12-2014 02:15:46
184.6.216.141



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to old, 02-11-2014 17:08:33  
Old,
We just disagree on how the pull logs, which is ok, to each his own. Since I also pull the sled with my tractors I agree that a fixed drawbar is the best method for pulling something on flat gound but even on a flat dirt track the sled does have a rounded front edge. With your drawbar method I didn't hear you offer any suggestions for get the front of the log off the ground when skidding it in the woods will surely catch on something and could cause the tractor to flip.
If you do a search on google on logging winches you will see that my pulling logs with the box blade is not that much different the most of the 3pt winches use only mine doesn't have a winch.
Here's one link.
http://www.farmiwinch.com/newpage5.htm

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old

02-12-2014 08:18:16
209.86.226.11



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Kirk-NJ, 02-12-2014 02:15:46  
Sorry but back in 2003 when we had tornado's take down 50% of our tree I did in fact get into logging for a bit so yes I know about having the log up I used my back blade that way if I did get the front end light it was there to keep it from flipping over. Your picture show little to stop a flip over since t shows something right at he end of the 3 point arms again just trying to keep this guy alive and safe

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KirK-NJ

02-12-2014 10:21:18
184.6.216.141



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to old, 02-12-2014 08:18:16  
I guess you could always add a pair of wheelie bars under the rear axle if roll over is a consern and I have seen some morons on youtube pulling logs that it should be mandatory.

Kirk



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old

02-12-2014 10:29:35
209.86.226.11



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to KirK-NJ, 02-12-2014 10:21:18  
Only reason I ever posted this to you was just trying to keep people safe and no days few have common sense so it is easy to help a person hurt them self's



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Del Huebner

02-11-2014 11:27:25
173.28.58.0



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:04:47  

If this is the drawbar bracket you have mounted on your tractor the after market drawbar at TSC will not work. You would need an original Dearborn Swinging Drawbar. I have been looking for one for a long time and still do not have one.
This site sells the after market Swinging Drawbar individually or in a kit.

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dbnga

02-11-2014 18:52:02
107.195.10.144



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Del Huebner, 02-11-2014 11:27:25  
I have the pin in this bracket shown in Del's pic and run a chain around the pin and pull logs from that point. The difference in pulling power and handling is noticeable compared to using the lift arms drawbar.



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tom888fish

02-11-2014 11:53:36
148.168.40.121



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Del Huebner, 02-11-2014 11:27:25  
From memory that looks like what I've got under there; I'd have to double check to be sure there aren't any subtle differences. Any thoughts on using the SDB vs just the horizontal?



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Del Huebner

02-11-2014 12:59:18
173.28.58.0



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:53:36  

Here is another type of drawbar, but as Old says it doesn't give you the safety for hard pulling as the under the axle type.



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old

02-11-2014 14:10:02
209.86.226.40



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Del Huebner, 02-11-2014 12:59:18  
If I had a picture of the true swinging draw bar that hooks under the rear end and has the slide area below the PTO I would post it but I don't have a picture of one and to lazy to go take a picture of the set up on my 841. Or maybe I just do not want to go out and get cold just to take a picture LOL



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old

02-11-2014 12:17:36
209.86.226.57



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 11:53:36  
There is more then one type of swinging draw bar that could be gotten for the 8N and newer fords. Some have a bracket under the PTO that has an area that the draw bar can swing side to side in and that is where the term swinging come into play.
As for pulling things like logs etc you want ot hook up as low as you can or you can end up with the tractor on top of you and you very much dead. NEVER pull something like that with the 3 point draw bar

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tom888fish

02-11-2014 13:04:22
148.168.40.121



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to old, 02-11-2014 12:17:36  
Old - you recommend not pulling w/ the horizontal draw bar, but it looks like other alternatives would be pulling from no higher than the HDB all the way down. The connection point would be almost the same place, i.e. just as low, just a little farther back. Am I missing something obvious?



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old

02-11-2014 14:05:34
209.86.226.40



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 13:04:22  
the 3 point draw bar as you pull and the front comes up that draw bar also comes up so you end up flipping he tractor over on top of your self. Also the 3 point draw bar is back 3 foot behind the tractor where as the under rear end swinging draw bar is down low and up close to less lever action. Remember Atlas said give me a big enough lever and I can move the world and the same happens with the 3 point draw bar and have seen too many tractors flipped due to people not know what thy are doing

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tom888fish

02-11-2014 19:31:28
50.133.152.112



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to old, 02-11-2014 14:05:34  
Can anyone point me to a picture of a swinging bar setup appropriate for pulling? I'm well enough versed in physics to understand moment and the higher I hitch, the greater the risk. But what I've seen of the SDBs puts my hitch point nearly the same place as the HDB at its lowest point. The only thing I've seen that clearly looks different is hitching to the pin in the clevis under the PTO.



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TheOldHokie

02-12-2014 02:20:05
71.176.182.245



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 19:31:28  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

The under axle swinging drawbar kit (SDA6) sold on this site and and by many other vendors provides a replacement clevis for the OEM design. The drawbar pin in the replacement clevis is directly under the axle and a secondary bracket that bolts to the PTO housing supports the center of the drawbar as it swings. Holes in the support bracket also allow the drawbar to be pinned at a number of different angles. It is a better mousetrap.

TOH

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Royse

02-11-2014 19:45:27
69.36.49.186



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-11-2014 19:31:28  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Tom, the 3 pt will lower that far, but there is no down pressure on it.

You can lift the arms by hand.

So when you start to pull, it can raise on its own, raising your pull point.

If the front wheels lift, the pull point just gets higher and higher
as the arms continue to lift.

The link I posted to the drawbar on YT is the one I like.

Not only is it low, it's stationary.

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tom888fish

02-12-2014 02:08:16
50.133.152.112



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to Royse, 02-11-2014 19:45:27  
Does it matter that I have fixed stays on the drawbar holding it down? I like the idea of pulling from under the tractor; and I've got what looks like the original receiver hardware under the PTO. I haven't played with it, but I believe the pin is supposed to come up from the bottom; is it possible to put a clevis to that to hook chain to?



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Ultradog MN

02-12-2014 09:29:17
174.20.239.172



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 Re: Question on swinging draw bar vs. horizontal drawbar in reply to tom888fish, 02-12-2014 02:08:16  
If you have an 8N then I suggest you buy, borrow or steal the correct parts so you can pull from the under axle drawbar.
You are correct that it is very simple physics (or geometry). The lower your pull point the safer you are. And the closer to the tractor the drawbar is the more weight you can safely carry.
Those stabilizer bars for the horizontal drawbar are like rubber noodles and will bend very easily.
One of the biggest improvements the 8N had over the 9/2N was it had a real drawbar.
I would suggest you take advantage of it.

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