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8n DIY power steering question

C

cbradio

Member
I searched and did not find anything relevant.

Ilike the jackson ps unit. But at $1400, thats way over budget appropriations.

Anyway, what would be hiccups that yiu all would forsee in using a ps control valve like so:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_10394221-P_x_x?cm_mmc=ACQ-_-Google-_-GPLA-_-10394221&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=10394221&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw=&gclid=CJKA6Z7R1LsCFe1xQgodHkgA0g#utm_source=acq&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=gpla&utm_content=10394221

Running fluid from the frontmounted loader pump to thisvakve to some appropriate stroce hyd cylinders and fabbin some brackets to clamp to existing steering aparatus?
 
(quoted from post at 10:26:31 12/31/13) I searched and did not find anything relevant.

Ilike the jackson ps unit. But at $1400, thats way over budget appropriations.

Anyway, what would be hiccups that yiu all would forsee in using a ps control valve like so:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_10394221-P_x_x?cm_mmc=ACQ-_-Google-_-GPLA-_-10394221&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=10394221&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw=&gclid=CJKA6Z7R1LsCFe1xQgodHkgA0g#utm_source=acq&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=gpla&utm_content=10394221

Running fluid from the frontmounted loader pump to thisvakve to some appropriate stroce hyd cylinders and fabbin some brackets to clamp to existing steering aparatus?
Click to expand...

Better to do it the way Roland does - buy a hydrostatic steering control vlave with matching steering column and fabricate a mount to replace the OEM column. You will need to split a dedicated 3 GPM prority circuit off the FEL pump BEFORE the control valve unless you want to have the loader valve turning your PS ON/OFF :roll:

Anyway you go you will be pushing that $1G number before you are done....

TOH
 
yup.. hard to get around the money.

best bet for someone with an existing loader pump is that priority flow valve you guys are talking about.
 

This is just my opinion but I just don't think the "N" tractors were designed for power steering. I have a Davis loader on mine and I don't even try to turn that wheel when I'm stopped, especially with a bucket full of dirt.

I think it's just too hard on the steering. I've learned to live with it successfully for nine years now with no problems. If you think the lack of PS is hard on your arms, what do you think it's like on the steering arms with power steering on it?

That's the trouble...with it turning so easy, you just won't even think about it.
 
Think outside of the box!
Sell your N and buy a tractor that HAS power steering on it.
<a href="http://harrisburg.craigslist.org/grd/4261568057.html" target="_blank">Here's a 2000 that had an electrical fire. No big deal to fix.</a>
<a href="http://frederick.craigslist.org/grd/4243448768.html" target="_blank">Here is another one that needs a little work.</a>
The fellows on the Ford board could help you fix this easily. I would talk him down a few hundred.
You don't say where you are located but <a href="http://cnj.craigslist.org/grd/4200482490.html" target="_blank">here's one if you need a snow plow to go with it.</a>
These are just a few I found on Searchtempest that have PS. I dismissed a bunch of tractors there because they didn't.
 
(quoted from post at 00:06:45 01/01/14) Think outside of the box!
Sell your N and buy a tractor that HAS power steering on it.
&lt;a href="http://harrisburg.craigslist.org/grd/4261568057.html" target="_blank"&gt;Here's a 2000 that had an electrical fire. No big deal to fix.&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href="http://frederick.craigslist.org/grd/4243448768.html" target="_blank"&gt;Here is another one that needs a little work.&lt;/a&gt;
The fellows on the Ford board could help you fix this easily. I would talk him down a few hundred.
You don't say where you are located but &lt;a href="http://cnj.craigslist.org/grd/4200482490.html" target="_blank"&gt;here's one if you need a snow plow to go with it.&lt;/a&gt;
These are just a few I found on Searchtempest that have PS. I dismissed a bunch of tractors there because they didn't.
Click to expand...


i know, i know, it's usually easier to just buy a 4wd or PS tractor. but I just rebuilt the engine and there is no way the wife would be OK with me selling the 8n or buying a second tractor.

plus part of the fun of the 8n's is that they are like mosin nagants. cheap and easy to customize and just 'see what you can fab up"
 
Put some weight on the 3 point will help when using the loader. I
have a loader on a 8N and I'm very happy with it. If you feel you just
got to have power steering best to look for a tractor that already
has it.
 
I agree with every reply so far, BUT, I was in a situation similar to yours. I rolled my own power steering for my 8N for about $400.
I used a spool valve w/power beyond, and a 1"x12" DA cylinder from Bailey Intl. Fabricated spindle drop arms and a tie rod to connect the front tires.
Works very well, feels like factory.
 

randy, do you just use it when you have a load in the bucket and when juat driving around it isnt used?

How do you get the cylinder to be passive when not needed?
 
My power steering is always active. Hydraulic pressure comes directly to the control valve from the pump. The power beyond port supplies the loader with pressure left over from steering system. Steering has priority.
 
The application for that valve is as a part of the "draglink" on an Econoline van, which has ONE draglink.

You 8N has TWO, one to each wheel.

For that use ONE ain't gonna work.

You could probably use TWO, one for each wheel, with two steering cylinders, but that's gonna get pricey.

Have you looked at the power steering valves and cylinders at Surplus Center?
Burden
 
(quoted from post at 00:49:07 01/01/14) My power steering is always active. Hydraulic pressure comes directly to the control valve from the pump. The power beyond port supplies the loader with pressure left over from steering system. Steering has priority.
Click to expand...

I'm having trouble with the details of this. Sounds like you used a power assist steering cylinder similar to the one CBRADIO asked about and you fabricated a tie rod for the front axle. So far so good.

The hydraulic pressure supply comes from the pump to your loader control valve and from the PB port on the valve it goes to the steering cylinder and then back to the sump? If the loader valve is really PB that wouldn't work because the flow to the PS would be cut off when the loader valve is shifted out of neutral.

If the loader valve is not PB but ordinary open center the PS flow won't be cutoff but the PS and loader cylinders will be interacting when the loader and PS control valves are both out of neutral.

If you are routing the flow to the PS cylinder first and from there to the loader valve you still have the interaction problem.

That interaction may not be a big deal and work fine on a low speed tractor but it isn't a priority flow PS circuit.To get truly independent PS you need a flow divider BEFORE the loader valve. That gives you two independent pressure circuits - one for each control valve - and each valve has it's own return to the sump. Because the flow from the pump varies with engine speed a priority rather than proportional type flow divider is typcally used. The circuit to the PS has priority in that it gets the first X gallons per minute of output where X is the prority flow in gallons per minute. You size the priority flow to match the requirements of the PS cylinder(s). If the pump output is less than X the PS priority circuit gets all of the flow and the laoder gets none. In other words the loader only gets what is left over from teh pump after the PS gets what it needs.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 10:26:31 12/31/13) I searched and did not find anything relevant.

Ilike the jackson ps unit. But at $1400, thats way over budget appropriations.

Anyway, what would be hiccups that yiu all would forsee in using a ps control valve like so:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_10394221-P_x_x?cm_mmc=ACQ-_-Google-_-GPLA-_-10394221&amp;ci_src=17588969&amp;ci_sku=10394221&amp;ci_gpa=pla&amp;ci_kw=&amp;gclid=CJKA6Z7R1LsCFe1xQgodHkgA0g#utm_source=acq&amp;utm_medium=google&amp;utm_campaign=gpla&amp;utm_content=10394221

Running fluid from the frontmounted loader pump to thisvakve to some appropriate stroce hyd cylinders and fabbin some brackets to clamp to existing steering aparatus?
Click to expand...

Here are a couple pictures that hopefully illustrate the priinciples of power assisted steering which are different from true hydrostatic steering. This is how Ford did it on their Hundred series NF machines. The PS cylinder replaces the drag link used on the manual system and is solidly anchored to the frame on the aft end and the steering knuckle on the front axle. A secondary drag link(#3) is used to connect the steering box pitman arm (#1) to a control valve (#7) that is integral to the PS cylinder. The control valve is simply an open center directional control valve that is continuously fed from the PS pump. When the operator turns the steering wheel the secondary drag link operates the control valve on the cylinder causing the cylinder to extend or retract in response to the steering wheel motion. That pulls the steering knuckle in the direction commanded by the steering wheel while moving the valve end of the cylinder in the same direction. As long as the operator continues to turn the wheel the stud valve is held open by the secondary link and the front wheels continue to turn in the direction commanded. When the operator stops turning the wheel the stud valve is returned to center by the motion of the cylinder and the cylinder motion ceases. Simple and effective but on a wide front tractor in order to transmit the power of the cylinder to both front wheels they need to be connected together by a cross link of some sort. If I understand Randy this is how he added PS to his 8N and he uses the FEL pump to supply the PS cylinder.

TOH

FordPowerAssistSteering1.png


FordPowerAssistSteering2.jpg
 
TOH, I know just enough about hydraulics to get in trouble, LOL. Disclaimer: My 8N is mostly used to maintain 500' of driveway at fairly low speeds. My steering setup may not be appropriate for everyone, but works great in my situation.
I plumbed the output from the front mount pump to my steering valve. (Baileynet.com part #220-906 with power beyond plug #220-915) The "out" ports of the valve go to the steering cylinder (Baileynet.com part #400-504). Output from the power beyond port goes to the loader control valve. This assures that the steering gets all the pressure it needs, and the loader gets the "leftovers". In practice the only time the loader hesitates is if I am steering rapidly and raising bucket at the same time. That is an unsafe maneuver anyway and should be avoided.
a140308.jpg

a140310.jpg
 
Thanks for the picture, TheOldHokie! That is how I configured the cylinder and valve. I simply used a separate valve rather than the integral one as shown in your photo.
I fabbed drop arms and a tie rod to connect the front wheels.
a140313.jpg

a140314.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 10:53:17 01/01/14) TOH, I know just enough about hydraulics to get in trouble, LOL. Disclaimer: My 8N is mostly used to maintain 500' of driveway at fairly low speeds. My steering setup may not be appropriate for everyone, but works great in my situation.
I plumbed the output from the front mount pump to my steering valve. (Baileynet.com part #220-906 with power beyond plug #220-915) The "out" ports of the valve go to the steering cylinder (Baileynet.com part #400-504). Output from the power beyond port goes to the loader control valve. This assures that the steering gets all the pressure it needs, and the loader gets the "leftovers". In practice the only time the loader hesitates is if I am steering rapidly and raising bucket at the same time. That is an unsafe maneuver anyway and should be avoided.
Click to expand...
Got it - an ordinary DA directional control valve bolted to the cylinder = Power assist steering cylinder. very clever and I'd say you have the niceties of the hydraulics well in hand. By making the PS control valve PB and using the PB port to supply the loader valve you eliminate interaction between the loader and PS cylinders. That comes at the expense of cutting off the loader supply when turning the steering wheel. What I don't see in your pictures is the tank return line from the PB steering valve?

TOH
 
Yes, you understand what I did! The tank return line from the steering valve is there, but not visible in the photo.
 

Randy,

Can't say thanks enough for the pictures, that is exactly the picture i needed to see. I thought you had the valve mounted on the steering column somewhere and would manually activate it during a turn to aid the steering. then, when it was in neutral pos, the fluid would flow back between the left and right cylinders freely.

you could also eliminate the connecting rod and install a second cylinder that is in series (but backwards in orientation) so cylinder 1's exhaust powered the opposite motion in cylinder 2, no?
 
(quoted from post at 13:43:00 01/01/14)
Randy,

Can't say thanks enough for the pictures, that is exactly the picture i needed to see. I thought you had the valve mounted on the steering column somewhere and would manually activate it during a turn to aid the steering. then, when it was in neutral pos, the fluid would flow back between the left and right cylinders freely.

you could also eliminate the connecting rod and install a second cylinder that is in series (but backwards in orientation) so cylinder 1's exhaust powered the opposite motion in cylinder 2, no?
Click to expand...

Yes - as Bob said you can eliminate the cross link by using two cylinders - one on either side of the tractor. The one without the valve is simply plumbed to act opposite the one with the valve - e.g. reverse the port connections. A bunch of fabrication and you are still only going to come in a few hundred bucks under the cost of a column mounted valve and cylinders.....

TOH
 

TOH, as always, excellent info.

Randy, where did you mount your cylinder so it could push/pull off of something solid? Is there chatter caused by the cylinder being fed fluid too fast and getting a "bounce" so to speak between hydraulic response and actual wheel turn?
 
Both original drag links were removed. The left one was shortened and attached to the valve. When the wheel is turned, all it does is activate the valve. The valve moves with the cylinder.
Yes, I originally used 2 cylinders, but had trouble keeping them in sync with each other.
 
Operation is smooth as silk. No bounce or lag. Mounted rear of cylinder to one of the studs at ball socket for radius rod.
a140333.jpg
 

Randy,

Awesome info! Cant say thanks enough. Truly, your guidance has been invaluable. Especially abiut two pistons not syncing.

Thanks all!
 
You're welcome! I know other guys have successfully used 2 cylinders. I don't know exactly why mine always seemed to lead with the tire that had the least traction. Probably air in the system?
 

well, clearly i am a hydraulics noob, but if you had them in parallel, they fluid would find the path of least resistance just as current does.

the tinker'er inme wants to try to create a closed loop between the cylinders.

however, since your system works, and steel is cheaper than a hydraulic cylinder, one cylinder it is!
 
(quoted from post at 01:03:23 01/02/14)
well, clearly i am a hydraulics noob, but if you had them in parallel, they fluid would find the path of least resistance just as current does.

the tinker'er inme wants to try to create a closed loop between the cylinders.

however, since your system works, and steel is cheaper than a hydraulic cylinder, one cylinder it is!
Click to expand...

Hooking two cylinders together in parallel doubles the output power but the rams can move independently of each other. Hooking them together in series does not increase the output power over a single cylinder but it prevents the rams from moving independently :idea:

TOH

PS&gt; For a steering system where the travel distances have to be dead equal they must have IDENTICAL cross sectional areas :idea: :idea:
 
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