9n charging troubles

Good Morning Folks,
Here is the issue: 1946 9N, 6v pos gnd. belt tight, connections good, gen polarized. When running at +1/3 throttle ammeter ( new one ) shows discharge.
I used Bruce's a-circuit troubleshoot flow chart, and when I got to 'jumper fld term to gnd @ reg' the ammeter spiked up very high and stayed there untill I removed jumper. This would indicate a bad Regulator right? What's annoying is I just put this regulator in because the last one failed the prior flow chart step, ' jump bat and gen term of reg'.
I don't want to keep replacing voltage regulators if something else is causing them to fail. Any suggestions? can I repair my voltage regulator? I'll work on tuning my carb while waiting for your help. Thanks
 
Before we go any further......

9N's did not come w/ a v/r. They could be added though.

Does yours really have a v/r?

(picture of a v/r w/o it's cover attached)
hub004.jpg

75 Tips
 
Yes Bruce, it does have a V/R like the one you have pitured. The generator has 3 wires coming off. Field, ground and armature. the old 'cut out' was disconnected.
 
Welcome to the world of cheap voltage regulators. I went through 4 of them, couldn't get one to work for more than a month, and bought an alternator. They are junk now.

Best bet is take it all off, take it to a genny shop, and have him pair it with one of his regulators and make it work good. Then bring it home and put it on. Let him wade through the junk. At $40 a pop you will go broke making that old system work with Chinese parts.
 
I haven't had a v/r go bad in years. I've bought them from nnalert's as well as a local shop. Chances are you're not going to fix it & neither will a shop. Even at $40 a pop, it's cheaper to buy a new one.

Maybe someone will start making solid state v/r's; the only fellow I know that did that passed away:

http://wiltonae.com/home/index.aspx
75 Tips
 
Nope.

That being said.....if you want to be 100% sure it's bad, pull the generator & the v/r & take both to your local shop. Most of them won't charge for checking both units.
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The difference between the B model & C model is that the B model was for a frontmount 8N & came w/ a mounting plate. The C model was for a sidemount 8N & didn't need the plate.

The v/r's are the same.

I'd get the B model; save the plate if you don't need it.

All that being said.....

Are you 100% sure you have an A circuit generator? An A circuit v/r won't work on a B circuit generator.
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Bruce, my generator has 3 wires coming from it. 1 from terminal marked GND, 1 from terminal marked FLD, and 1 heavier wire from back of gennerator (ARM). Is this the A circuit you referenced?
 
If you can not find a shop to take it to for repair
I would buy the 12 volt conversion kit from this
site. I also have spent many bucks on 6 volt N
tractor regulators only to not have them work
correctly. Most places will not let you return
electrical parts so a $40 non working regulator is a
paper weight. The 12 volt conversion kit plus a
battery will most likely cost you $200+. However,
after that you will be able to buy replacement parts
at any auto parts store.
 
I'm not aware of any way to visually tell an A circuit from a B circuit externally. Remove the belt and wires from the generator. Connect a jumper from the field post to ground, then another jumper from the battery to the armature post. If it spins like an electric motor, it is an A circuit.

Or.........

Assuming it is an A circuit & had an A circuit v/r, look at the v/r. An A circuit will have a bias resistor on the bottom of the regulator between the ground and the field tab.

The B circuit will have a bias resistor between the field and arm tab.
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(quoted from post at 10:32:39 09/02/13) I'm not aware of any way to visually tell an A circuit from a B circuit externally. Remove the belt and wires from the generator. Connect a jumper from the field post to ground, then another jumper from the battery to the armature post. If it spins like an electric motor, it is an A circuit.

Or.........

Assuming it is an A circuit & had an A circuit v/r, look at the v/r. An A circuit will have a bias resistor on the bottom of the regulator between the ground and the field tab.

The B circuit will have a bias resistor between the field and arm tab.
75 Tips
will try the jumper to the generator test tomorrow, Who knows if it's the correct V/R now, because its the 3rd one since I bought the tractor, and back then it was a real 'Frankenstein', what with all the misc. repair jobs over the years. Thanks for all your help.
 
Hate to hear about Mr. Bob Jeffers passing....he was a very knowledgeable, very nice & accommodating person.
 
Bruce, I confirmed that the generator is an A circuit with the motoring test. Ordered and installed a new V/R and still we do not charge. Took the generator and both V/R's to a local shop that rebuilds alternators/starters, etc.. The gentleman put the Generator on his test bench and ran it with 'Negative Ground' and he said it works fine, than hooked it up for 'Positive Ground" and the Ground wire began smokin'.
He admits that he does not work on many old tractor generators, but wondered if it was a rebuilt generator and could it have been internally wired as a negative ground? Is this possible? Could this explain why I have gone through 3 V/R's, or Do I need to go back to square one. ( by the way, we never got to hooking up the generator to the V/R's, as he was certain the Generator was only functioning when in 'Negative Ground' mode. Any and all suggestions will be entertained. Thanks,
Old Fossil
 
(quoted from post at 11:43:08 09/13/13) Bruce, I confirmed that the generator is an A circuit with the motoring test. Ordered and installed a new V/R and still we do not charge. Took the generator and both V/R's to a local shop that rebuilds alternators/starters, etc.. The gentleman put the Generator on his test bench and ran it with 'Negative Ground' and he said it works fine, than hooked it up for 'Positive Ground" and the Ground wire began smokin'.
He admits that he does not work on many old tractor generators, but wondered if it was a rebuilt generator and could it have been internally wired as a negative ground? Is this possible? Could this explain why I have gone through 3 V/R's, or Do I need to go back to square one. ( by the way, we never got to hooking up the generator to the V/R's, as he was certain the Generator was only functioning when in 'Negative Ground' mode. Any and all suggestions will be entertained. Thanks,
Old Fossil
e is correct that he doesn't work on many generators! There is no such animal as "internally wired" as pos or neg ground generator. The ONLY thing that makes a generator output pos or neg is how it was last polarized, which sets the residual magnetism in the pole pieces. Sorry about your generator man. Can you find a good/old generator man?
 
quote="JMOR"](quoted from post at 10:12:12 09/13/13) Old Fossil[/quote]e is correct that he doesn't work on many generators! There is no such animal as "internally wired" as pos or neg ground generator. The ONLY thing that makes a generator output pos or neg is how it was last polarized, which sets the residual magnetism in the pole pieces. Sorry about your generator man. Can you find a good/old generator man?[/quote]


JMOR, I'll poke around at the tractor dealer in Wisconsin this weekend, see if they can test it for me. I'm located in Illinois, but have a place in Wisconsin, where I plan to bring the old 9N to once she runs reliably. Meantime I'm going to try to check the Generator output before the V/R with a meter, something I have not tried yet.
Thanks,
Old Fossil
 
JMOR, I'll poke around at the tractor dealer in Wisconsin this weekend, see if they can test it for me. I'm located in Illinois, but have a place in Wisconsin, where I plan to bring the old 9N to once she runs reliably. Meantime I'm going to try to check the Generator output before the V/R with a meter, something I have not tried yet.
Thanks,
Old Fossil

In doing that, you don't want to run it unloaded, because the voltage (if it is working) will go too high for the field coils, around 18 volts. Make these connections, (temporarily & only for very short periods before starting & very short periods after stopping). Can run at speed for as long as you like. Hours would likely over charge battery though if it is charging. This simply full fields the generator & bypasses the VR cutout function. VR wiring still in place, but all being bypassed with the two jumpers.


or if a newer regulator;
 
" Ordered and installed a new V/R and still we do not charge. "

Did you polarize the generator?

" could it have been internally wired as a negative ground? Is this possible?"

As JMOR said, no.

Find another shop.

But first, hook it all back up & polarize the generator before you start it up.
 
(quoted from post at 15:05:59 09/13/13) " Ordered and installed a new V/R and still we do not charge. "

Did you polarize the generator?

" could it have been internally wired as a negative ground? Is this possible?"

As JMOR said, no.

Find another shop.

But first, hook it all back up & polarize the generator before you start it up.
ust as a note for Fossil, the connections I show will BOTH polarize the gen & bypass the VR. If that makes it charge, remove jumpers one at a time, while running, to see which if either stops the charging. Expect a decrease but not complete stop of charging.
 
JMOR, the two jumper wires, when put in place temporarily,to bypass the V/R, will I look for charge on the dash ameter or should I use an analog test meter? and if so, is it between the Bat term of V/R and Neg term of Battery?
 
Bruce, thanks, yes I hooked it all back up and did polarize, will be trying JMOR's test in a few minutes, battery is on charger now.
 
(quoted from post at 15:16:15 09/13/13) JMOR, the two jumper wires, when put in place temporarily,to bypass the V/R, will I look for charge on the dash ameter or should I use an analog test meter? and if so, is it between the Bat term of V/R and Neg term of Battery?
o both, look at ammeter and place voltmeter directly between the two battery posts.
 
JMOR, jumper on V/R and on Gen, we get 6? amps + on Ameter.
Jumper on V/R only, we get 3? amp discharge on Ameter.
Jumper on Generator only we get 3? amp discharge on Ameter.
Analog test meter across battery terminals shows very slight charge with both jumpers on and no change with either or both jumpers off. Ameter seems ok as it drops when lights are turned on. Analog test meter not easy to get good reading of such fine increments.
 
(reply to post at 14:03:17 09/13/13)
JMOR, Bruce, have to pack it in for the weekend, I'll pick up where we left off next week. Thanks for all of your help. I'm sure we'll get to the root of the problem soon.
 

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