12 volt conversion of '51 8n

Mbeise

New User
Hey guys, I always get get advice here. My question: what are
the main advantages of doing the conversion to 12 volt? I have
a lot of trouble with points and such in my tractor. Will the
conversion help?
 
Big thing is that you do not need a 6 volt charge and a way to jump start it if switch to 12 volts. Plus if low on compression it will start on 12 volt but may not on 6 volts. Also if you need to tractor and it is say zero degrees out it is more likely to start. If done right points and all the other parts will last as long as if on 6 volts but starting can/will be easier
 
I've done the 12 volt conversion to all 3 of my tractors that were 6 volt from the factory. Reason:

1: Compatibility when jump starting.

2: More reliable charging system.

3: Able to run my 12 volt sprayer from the tractor electrical system.

If you have points problems figure out what's wrong first. Make sure you are using the correct coil and resistor if so equipped. Check the grounds and so.

Rick
 
A conversion will not help you with your points problem.
Either buy Good points from Blue Streak or Echlen or convert to electronic ignition.
If you go to EI make sure you put them in right or hire someone to do it.
Too many clueless people try to DIY and screw them up. Then they come on here whining and cussing and give EI a bad name.
EI done correctly will will allow you to never mess with your distributer again.
As for a 12V convversion, here are some of the advantages:

[i:654c4848f0]*12V spins your engine much faster and starts it better in all conditions, especially if it is very cold or if the engine has marginal compression.
*12V with an alternator is more reliable and uses a solid state VR instead of an old fashioned system of points, coils and electromagnets to regulate the charging voltage.
Solid state is better, more accurate, more dependable.
*12V is more forgiving of dirty contacts on/in the entire wiring harness.
*12v is the industry standard and has been for 50 years.
*12v allows you to run sprayer pumps, flashing lights, winches and a host of other modern accessories on your tractor.
*12V lights are brighter.
*A 12v alternator will easily put out more amps than an old fashioned generator and vr.
*An alternator will charge at an idle. Generator generally will not.
*A 12v system is safer. For example, Most people know how to jump a 12v negative ground car, truck or tractor. Not many people know how to safely jump a 6v positive ground tractor with a 12 battery without something exploding in their faces or getting themselves run over.
*6v requires bigger, harder to find wires and cables throughout the system.
*12v batteries are to be found just about anywhere, are cheaper than 6v and are usually maintenance free.
*12v lets you use electronic ignition easily.
* And last but not least, is this your only 6V machine?
What kind of battery is in your boat, your RV, your classic car or even your 4 wheeler or snowmobile if you have them? Why have an odd ball battery that can't jump or be jumped by anything else? [/i:654c4848f0]
 
If you are having problems with points it will not be cured by a 12 volt conversion. You need to find out what is causing your points problem. When you set the points check to see if the setting is the same on all four lobes. If not check for any shaft movement which could indicate worn bushings. If there is no shaft movement try a quality point set like Blue Streak made by Standard Ignition. Only when you have fixed all ignition problems should you consider a 12 volt conversion. If not you will still have the same point problem. I have 3 8N"s that I have converted to 12 volts with the one wire system sold by this site and others. All 3 start and run great. 12 volt batteries and alternators are easier to find than 6 volt. I have found it almost impossible to find a good 6 volt regulator for an 8N. It is only economically advantageous to convert when you need to replace 6 volt equipment. Once you have fixed the point problem and converted to 12 volts you may want to replace the points with an electronic ignition modular. Then you will not need to worry about finding good points which are also getting harder to find.
 
The 12 volt conversion debate comes up here w/ such frequency that you would benefit from doing an archives search on the topic. Generally speaking, you will find a few facts, a lot of opinion, & unfortunately, a little BS. And sometimes you will find factual information that isn’t the least bit relevant to a 12v conversion on a 23 hp, 60 year old tractor. ("the auto industry did it 40 years ago")

Generally speaking, the opinions can be grouped in three broad categories:

1. 12v conversions are the greatest invention since sliced bread.

2. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

3. Spend whatever it takes to keep it 6v.

From my experience, I've only found two reasons to convert an N to 12v: If you need to run 12v equipment (sprayers, pumps, lights, etc) or your N has poor compression (like less than 90 lbs) and you do not want to rebuild it, then a 12v conversion makes sense. If an N is hard to start in cold weather (or any weather) find out why & fix it! These tractors have low compression, low HP engines and will start just fine on 6v.

There is nothing inherently 'wrong' w/ a 12v conversion. The problem is that there are about 6 different ways to convert the tractor to 12v, all of them work, and an infinite number of ways to do it wrong. If you have a basic understanding of tractor mechanics, you can buy a quality kit & do it correctly. Or, you can buy an alternator & fabricate brackets if you are skilled at that sort of stuff. Of course, if you have a basic understanding of tractor mechanics, you could just as easily fix the problem that you are trying to cure with the 12v conversion. Most problems we read about w/ 12v conversions are as a result of folks getting in over their heads trying to fabricate a conversion, using inferior kits or using kits w/ directions written in Chinese, or buying tractors w/ "Bubba" conversions and now the new owner is stuck with trying to figure it out. I can tell you that a wage earning mechanic known to many of us on this board summed up every conversion kit he was familiar with by saying that all are bad & some are worse. He makes his own for that very reason.

Now before the 12v advocates give me a spanking, let me add that lots of folks around here have 12v conversions & are perfectly happy w/ them because the conversions were done correctly. 12v is also more forgiving of poor grounds/weak cables, etc than 6v, so keeping everything "clean, bright & tight" in the system is not as critical. 12v gives you twice as much current & a faster spinning starter. And, because 6v headlights are 35w & 12v are 55w, the headlights are brighter.

You will spend probably $160 for a kit. If you install it correctly you will have an easy starting tractor for a long time. And, the 12 conversion will have just about nothing to do w/ the good performance. What will make the real difference is the new wiring, cables, clean grounds & new battery.

All four of my N's are 6v & they all four start the first time, every time, no matter what the weather. You will find that to be the case with folks who live in a lot of places much colder than VA. Plenty of 6v tractors start just fine in MI, NY, WI.....and have been doing so for years. Because they have the correct size cables, good batteries, & clean, bright & tight grounds & connections. And, the correct gaskets in the distributor.

If you do decide that a 12v conversion is the way to go, plenty of folks on this board have done them and they work well, so you have come to the right place for help!

As everyone is telling you, a 12v conversion will not prevent points failure.

Usually burned points will have pits on one side & raised areas on the others. Sometimes they just wear unevenly. They will most always discolor as they have a coating on the surface. The usual causes of burned points are absence of cam/wearing block lubricant, condenser failure, a decreasing gap caused by wear on the rubbing block, mis-alignment, sanding w/ a point file, excessive current, setting an incorrect gap, leaving the ignition key on w/ the points closed, use of incorrect cam lubricant & poor quality metal. I've heard of points being welded shut, but I've never seen it happen.

My last set of points in my 1950 frontmount lasted 1 month short of 4 years, and that is by no means a record. I've got 3 N's, all 6v & all w/ points. I've never had a reason to convert any to 12v or install EI. So, I figure I’m probably doing something right & thought I’d share my observations.

You can change points everyday & it will not fix bad bushings. If you are having trouble w/ points failure, check the shaft. If you detect movement, chances are it needs new bushings.

Just because I’ve never experienced a worn out distributor cam doesn’t mean it can’t happen.
Specs for the frontmount are:
Across flats = .789/.791
Over lobes = .869/.871 dia.

Sidemount measurements are:
Across flats = .72
Over lobes = .78 dia.

The next trick to points lasting a long, long time is annual maintenance. (tip # 40) No matter how well it's running, pull the distributor (or cap for a sidemount), check the gap & put a dab of points lube on the cam. Not bearing grease or Vaseline; use the correct lube.

Quality parts are critical to longevity. Having learned the hard way, I most always use Blue Streak brand points. They are made by Standard parts & available at many auto parts stores. (frontmount points also fit a 48 Ford as I recall) Beware of sticker shock: $16-18 a set. My next choices are Wells or Echlin. Look for a brown rubbing block. Unfortunately, many folks have experienced problems w/ points made by Tisco, Sparex, A&I Products and any TSC ignition parts..

Correct points installation & gap is also important. Make sure the blade is at a perfect right angle to the points & you want to feel just the slightest bit of drag when you pull the blade through the points. Make sure the blade is clean & that you dress the new points by running some card stock or a piece of brown paper bag through them. Gap is .015 on the frontmount, .025 on the sidemount on all four lobes of the cam.

Make sure the points align correctly. Proper alignment is also critical to longevity. Look at the points when they are closed; both sides should mate evenly.

Even as tight as I am, I always change the condenser when I change the points…….and then I toss the condenser in the “used” parts box. A bad condenser is rare; you can tell if the points are pitted/burned w/ metal transfer.

Good hold-down screws are important. (tip # 37) If the heads are wallowed out, what do you think the threads look like? You can use machine screws as temporary replacements, but you should use the OEM Fillister head screws. The larger head is there for a reason. If you do use standard machine screws, make sure they aren’t too long & interfere w/ the advance weights. Always use star washers under the screws.

Timing is important to engine performance. Make sure you set the point gap before you set the timing. Timing a sidemount is pretty straight forward; it has marks on the flywheel. It’s a bit different for a frontmount but it’s a necessary part of a tune-up nonetheless. And, contrary to what some folks think, timing a frontmount is not accomplished by getting #1 to TDC & putting the distributor back on the engine!

When I was 16 years old making $1.25 an hour & a set of points cost $1, I filed points. I must have been good at it because I recall it was almost a weekly exercise. If you ever file a set of points, you will remove the metallic coating on them & reduce the life span considerably. Unless you plan to keep on filing them, plan on replacing them pretty soon!

And lastly………it does not matter if it’s 6 volt or 12 volt, you must use the OEM ballast resistor on a frontmount. Too much current to the points will burn them up in short order (leave the key on with the points closed & you will experience this “learning point” in about 3 minutes, tip # 38) For a 12v conversion on a frontmount, you probably need another resistor in the circuit as well but unless you measure the coil resistance, you will not know for sure. On a 12v sidemount, it will need a resistor if it’s a 6v coil (and even some 12v round coils need one) or you can just get a true 12v coil from NAPA & not worry about it. (tip # 30).
75 Tips
 
If you are having issues with contaqct points, a 12V conversion will not help as others have already said.

Assuming that you have the proper coil and proper,functional condenser, your point problem is due to the poor quality of most currently available contact sets.

Buy a quality set of points, e.g., Standard Ignition Blue Streak, and most such issues will vanish.

Dean
 
LOL, what Bruce isn't telling you is that with everything perfect in the system, fairly new fully charged 6 volt system will be difficult to start when it's -30F and the wind chill is bringing it down to -50F and the tractor sits outside. Heck old point systems factory 12 volts engines can be a bear to start in temps like that. My first vehicle was a 6 volt 51 Chevy truck followed by a 50 Chevy 4 door Deluxe. My dad helped me with those and he sounded a lot like Bruce and his "clean tight and bright". Even after rebuilding them both, no problems with the charging or ignition systems, both would have to be plugged in at about zero to pre heat the engine some. Dads AC CA with a good charging system, good engine and rebuilt magneto was a bear to start below about 10. That darned thing was so bad that dad just kept it plugged in when he wasn't using it because he needed it every day. My 8N didn't like anything below -10F. With the 12 volt it starts right up down to -25F (coldest it's been sense I converted. I'm sure the engine overhaul helped but now it pops right off.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 15:14:12 08/13/13) Well said.
The most vehement 6V advocates generally don't live above about the 40th parallel.

And they are stuck with a P.O.S. front mount dist. that's a P.O.S. 6 are 12V's...

Side mounts were born to be converted 8) ...
 
(quoted from post at 08:14:12 08/13/13) Well said.
The most vehement 6V advocates generally don't live above about the 40th parallel.

agree
while there are 6v'ers that will start in cold temps,
they are the exception, rather than the rule.
Most of mine get 12v, the few 6v ones I have start in warm weather fine........cold, I don't bother trying.
That, "make sure everything is right, hold your breath, don't mess up the fire/start attempt when it tries" gets old quick

really cold days, 12v, big CCA, big reserve, torpedo heaters,
knowing the tractors starting preferences, and not flubbing it...
and maybe...
As fellow Northerners know, taking off your gloves to 'work' on
something is just not possible some times in hard winter...you'll lose your fingers
(like the day my 07 truck's starter pulled the battery down so far, I lost my radio presets..it started though...did I attempt a tractor start that day?....nope)

to the OP, like said, 'trouble with the points' will be the same at any voltage, got to get that straightened out first
 
If you pay attention you will see all problems that 12 volters have on the forum.I have a set of points that have been in the tractor for 27 YEARS.My tractor is still 6 volts.I usually park the tractor in jan /feb because of deep snow here.It starts when I cant.
 
If it is -30 with a wind chill of -50, the last darn thing I am going to be doing is trying to start a tractor! I will be sitting by the fire with a good cup of hot coffee!
 
(quoted from post at 18:30:59 08/14/13) If you pay attention you will see all problems that 12 volters have on the forum.I have a set of points that have been in the tractor for 27 YEARS.My tractor is still 6 volts.I usually park the tractor in jan /feb because of deep snow here.It starts when I cant.

This is very true. Some folks use their machines daily and for hours on. Some of us use our machines maybe once a week for a few hours if that. Points on the latter will last much much longer as they do not go bad just sitting there provided ignition key is OFF while not running and all other components and wiring are clean and tight. Think about it, those points could have been on your dealers shelf for years before you came along. Might as well have sat in my tractors frontend. They wont wear if not used.

Just remember preventative maintenance for a few moments here and there is practically no cost versus a break down which leads to high costs, loss time and areas needing fixing that you have no knowledge of and not comfortable tackling.

I kike to tear into a system when I know that it is working as it should. Take measurements, voltage, resistance, size depth, width, height, color, placement what have you. Make notes of your findings and shove them into your service manual. That info will become much more valuable than the actual manual when you're in a pinch. :p
 
Theres no metal transfer on the points but they are well worn an due for a change.My tractor dosent get used a much as it used to but I run it 2 or 3 times a week.Once the weather cools It will be working in the woods every day unless it rains.I do not neglect the tractor but take care of what it needs.Many of the problems with tractors are self inflicted by owners.If I go out today and the engine dosent start I will see that the ammeter sits on zero while cranking.There are two ways to fix it.First way, go to the store and buy new points,new condenser,new spark plugs, new wires, new coil,new ignition switch,new battery, new starter solenoid,new start switch,almost forgot Ill need a new rotor, new distributor cap and new voltage regulator.Change all these parts and hope it starts.Second way, go straight to the distributor and clean the points with a diamond paddle file.Tractor starts and I haul the load of brush to the burn pile. It was raining all week and I know my engine always shuts down with the points open.You can see this on the ammeter.No way to leave the key on on my 640.You can see a key left on by looking at the ammeter before you get off the seat.I expect the wet weather grew some fuzz on the points and insulated them.This reminds me of the fellow who saw a hole in his points and thought they were bad.
 

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