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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

Re: point

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Bruce (VA)

05-09-2013 05:57:56
24.125.80.178



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Geometry of the distributor cam.

You want the points to stay closed as long as possible to allow max voltage build-up in the coil, but you also want a wider gap to prevent arcing when they open. So, the cam was re-designed when the sidemount came out.

No, you can not open the gap on a frontmount to .025 & get the same effect.

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teddy52food

05-09-2013 07:23:57
184.94.175.179



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 Re: point in reply to Bruce (VA), 05-09-2013 05:57:56  
Condenser is there to prevent arcing. Gap is so they can cool better. Arcing is from the coil collapse, not from the battery and is a higher voltage than the battery can put out. E=MC2



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soundguy

05-09-2013 08:38:43
184.240.71.189



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 Re: point in reply to teddy52food, 05-09-2013 07:23:57  
congrats.

e=mc2 is einsteins equation.

energy is equal to mass, times the speed of light squared.

were you perhaps thinking about E=IR

voltage = current times resistance :)
This post was edited by souNdguy at 08:41:49 05/09/13.



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teddy52food

05-09-2013 10:20:21
184.94.175.179



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 Re: point in reply to soundguy, 05-09-2013 08:38:43  
You don't get something from nothing. The jolt coming out of a coil collapse is greater than the battery imput. It comes from the atoms of the copper wire. E=MC2. A condenser has to absorb it so the points don't burn. If you wind up a large coil and charge it with the same imput as a small coil the jolt will be much larger. E=mc2.



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soundguy

05-09-2013 13:17:44
108.112.1.29



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 Re: point in reply to teddy52food, 05-09-2013 10:20:21  
"The jolt coming out of a coil collapse is greater than the battery imput"

this statement breaks the 1st law of thermodynamics.....



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teddy52food

05-09-2013 17:22:04
184.94.175.179



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 Re: point in reply to soundguy, 05-09-2013 13:17:44  
Not when you apply E=MC2. The larger the coil, the more EMF coming out of it with the same imput.



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TheOldHokie

05-10-2013 04:27:18
108.22.203.24



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 Re: point in reply to teddy52food, 05-09-2013 17:22:04  
I am a mathematician/physicist by training but I must have missed the class where they covered this application of E=mc2. My only experience with this formula was in a class on General Relativity and I don't recall anything in our discussion of General Relativity about how this relationship would be applied to the operation of a coil. We did however discuss EMF, inductance, and coils in a freshman class on Electricity and Magnetism. Can you give me a brief mathematical description of how Einstein's energy/mass equation is applied to explaining the behavior of a coil? Don't pull any punches with the mathematics - if I can't handle it I'll ask for additional tutoring.

TOH

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teddy52food

05-10-2013 09:07:39
184.94.175.179



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 Re: point in reply to TheOldHokie, 05-10-2013 04:27:18  
You didn't miss anything because conventional teaching doesn't explain it. I am not able to explain in a few sentances what is in a book. In my mind it is simple and obvious. If you are serious about it, get the book The Energy Machine Of Joseph Newman & study it for yourself.



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TheOldHokie

05-10-2013 05:42:08
108.22.203.24



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 Re: point in reply to TheOldHokie, 05-10-2013 04:27:18  
Here is an example from the E&M section of my trusty Halliday and Resnick demonstrating how coil energy is computed using simple inductance. What I'm looking for is something similar from you showing how it would be done using Einstein's relativistic mass/energy relationship (e=mc2).
A coil has an inductance (L) of 5.0 henrys and a resistance (R) of 20 ohms. If a 100 volt emf (E) is applied what energy (U) is stored in the magnetic field after current has built to it's maximum?

Maximum current: i = E/R = 100 volts/20 ohms = 5.0 amps Stored energy: U = 1/2Li2(5.0 henrys)(5.0 amps)2 = 63 joules
Also note that the total energy stored by the coil is less than the total energy input by the power source - some of that energy is lost as heat due to the electrical resistance of the coil. (First Law of Thermodynamics)

TOH

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Indiana Ken

05-11-2013 06:04:29
66.249.233.162



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 Re: point in reply to TheOldHokie, 05-10-2013 05:42:08  
Mr, TOH: Oh yes - the Halliday and Resnick, Chapter 32, page 604. I also enjoyed your post of the NBS report on the Newman device.

Nice job



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TheOldHokie

05-11-2013 14:43:21
108.22.203.24



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 Re: point in reply to Indiana Ken, 05-11-2013 06:04:29  

Indiana Ken said: (quoted from post at 09:04:29 05/11/13) Mr, TOH: Oh yes - the Halliday and Resnick, Chapter 32, page 604. I also enjoyed your post of the NBS report on the Newman device.

Nice job


Thank you. My personal copy of Halliday and Resnick is the 1960 edition purchased for my freshman year in B'burg and that particular problem may be found in Chapter 36, pp 909 of that edition. I came on board at NBS in 4/87 so I missed the Newman tests but I hung on for another 25 years. Lots of good experiences there and a great opportunity to learn what I don't know from world class scientists.
TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 14:45:38 05/11/13.

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soundguy

05-10-2013 13:34:55
184.240.4.188



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 Re: point in reply to TheOldHokie, 05-10-2013 05:42:08  
whoops.. I was wrong .. i postulated earlier that we had a few engineers and technicians here.. but maybee no physicists.

I was wrong. :)



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JMOR

05-09-2013 19:14:12
72.181.173.171



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 Re: point in reply to teddy52food, 05-09-2013 18:51:31  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeHey, teddy.........I'm just going to help you out a little here........can you explain to these folks what the E and the M and the C stand for.... might help them, too.



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teddy52food

05-09-2013 19:29:42
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 Re: point in reply to JMOR, 05-09-2013 19:14:12  
E is energy, M is mass, C is the speed of light. It not only applies to fizzle physics and bombs but magnets too.



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TheOldHokie

05-09-2013 11:41:13
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 Re: point in reply to teddy52food, 05-09-2013 10:20:21  

teddy52food said: (quoted from post at 13:20:21 05/09/13) You don't get something from nothing. The jolt coming out of a coil collapse is greater than the battery imput. It comes from the atoms of the copper wire. E=MC2. A condenser has to absorb it so the points don't burn. If you wind up a large coil and charge it with the same imput as a small coil the jolt will be much larger. E=mc2.


This looks like fun - let me try.
First law of thermodynamics:


Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. Informally known in physics as the principle of conservation of energy. You never get any more or any less E out than you put in.
TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 13:01:41 05/09/13 5 times.

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soundguy

05-09-2013 13:14:40
108.112.1.29



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 Re: point in reply to TheOldHokie, 05-09-2013 11:41:13  
if the laymen understood even the principle of wattage and the relation to voltage and current, we wouldn't have this many odd explanations of how a kettering ignition works.

methinks plenty of people missed plenty of schooling. ;)



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Bruce (VA)

05-09-2013 16:00:31
24.125.80.178



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 Re: point in reply to soundguy, 05-09-2013 13:14:40  
" if the laymen understood even the principle of wattage and the relation to voltage and current, we wouldn't have this many odd explanations of how a kettering ignition works."

Amen.

And it's a shame because the basics are pretty simple. The Kettering Ignition system came out in 1910. It's not like it's rocket science.....or nuclear physics. ;)



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soundguy

05-09-2013 16:28:05
184.240.96.1



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 Re: point in reply to Bruce (VA), 05-09-2013 16:00:31  
yup.. here we are 103ys later.. and people still can't set points. ;)



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old

05-09-2013 08:27:18
209.86.226.11



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 Re: point in reply to teddy52food, 05-09-2013 07:23:57  
Been so long since I used E=MC squared I do not even remember what it means. But then it has been almost 40 years since I went in the Navy and it was taught in my E.T. school



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soundguy

05-09-2013 08:39:50
184.240.71.189



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 Re: point in reply to old, 05-09-2013 08:27:18  
e=mc2 is einsteins equation..

e=ir is probably the basics you guys are remembering.



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old

05-09-2013 08:49:26
209.86.226.11



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 Re: point in reply to soundguy, 05-09-2013 08:39:50  
In E.T. school we where taught both plus many other theories ad fact or what is believed to be facts. Ohms law. Binary and octal math. And gates Nor gate etc etc



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JMOR

05-09-2013 08:43:07
72.181.173.171



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 Re: point in reply to soundguy, 05-09-2013 08:39:50  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeOr stored energy in the coils mag field, E = LxI squared.



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souNdguy

05-09-2013 08:50:35
184.240.71.189



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 Re: point in reply to JMOR, 05-09-2013 08:43:07  
maybee ;)

but I don't see too many inductance formluea discussed here.
who knows. we might have some closet physicists in here hiding :)

certaintly not me!



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old

05-09-2013 08:59:27
209.86.226.11



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 Re: point in reply to souNdguy, 05-09-2013 08:50:35  
I have probably forgotten more about electronics then many have ever learned. But then I did repair computers back in the day when your fridge was as big as the computer if not bigger the the fridge. You also removes parts and installed new parts on circuit board but not any more



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