8N Sleeve problem.

hotdawg22

Member
hello. Am new here and hopefully someone can help me on this. I have an 8N with side mount distributor and it had running problems so i took the pan off and found pieces of metal there which later turned out to be number 3 sleeve. .40 or thinwall kind.

I have a couple of things that maybe somebody can help me with.

1) Do all side mount distributor 8N motors have the .90 sleeves?

2) My 8N side mount dropped the #3 sleeve into the oil pan. It has the .40 sleeves in all cylinders

Here is what it looks like.

A) I looked in the cylinders of the other three and there is a gap between the piston and cylinder wall of about 1/8 inch. I could actually see the rings.

Is this normal? The pistons have STD stamped on the top. Could this have been bored out that much?

B) I was able to pull the remaining sleeves out by hand even with the pistons still in there. That can't be normal? The walls of the block look great and no scratches etc.

The sn is 409277


Thanks for any help you can give.
 
(quoted from post at 10:10:03 05/03/13) hello. Am new here and hopefully someone can help me on this. I have an 8N with side mount distributor and it had running problems so i took the pan off and found pieces of metal there which later turned out to be number 3 sleeve. .40 or thinwall kind.

I have a couple of things that maybe somebody can help me with.

1) Do all side mount distributor 8N motors have the .90 sleeves?

2) My 8N side mount dropped the #3 sleeve into the oil pan. It has the .40 sleeves in all cylinders

Here is what it looks like.

A) I looked in the cylinders of the other three and there is a gap between the piston and cylinder wall of about 1/8 inch. I could actually see the rings.

Is this normal? The pistons have STD stamped on the top. Could this have been bored out that much?

B) I was able to pull the remaining sleeves out by hand even with the pistons still in there. That can't be normal? The walls of the block look great and no scratches etc.

The sn is 409277


Thanks for any help you can give.

The .090 wall sleeves were only used for the very end of 8N production.

The gap you see is the space between the block wall and the piston - e.g. the sleeve wall thickness.

If the sleeves simply came out they are overly loose - quite possibly because someone thought it would be a good idea to hone the block when they installed the new sleeves :evil:

Rather than futz around with trying to fit oversize .040 wall sleeves I would suggest reboring the block for the stock .090 wall sleeves.

TOH
 
Thanks for the fast info.
I need to clarify the gap i see in the cylinder.
The gap i see is with the liners still in. The one with out the liner is even larger as you said in your reply.
So i am confused as to how that much space can exist between the sleeve wall, which is standard, and the piston which is also standard. Am i missing something?
Every engine i have ever overhauled the piston had a very close fit in the cylinder.
 
(quoted from post at 11:10:53 05/03/13) Thanks for the fast info.
I need to clarify the gap i see in the cylinder.
The gap i see is with the liners still in. The one with out the liner is even larger as you said in your reply.
So i am confused as to how that much space can exist between the sleeve wall, which is standard, and the piston which is also standard. Am i missing something?
Every engine i have ever overhauled the piston had a very close fit in the cylinder.

The stock piston bore is 3.1875

The nominal block bore for .040 wall sleeves is 3.2675

The nominal block bore for ,090 wall sleeves is 3.3675

Regardles of the wall rthickness of the sleeves the piston clearance INSIDE the sleeve should be roughly .003 measured at the skirt.

So apparently just one sleeve came completely out? Do the ones still in the block move with the pistons? Any that move MUST be fixed.

TOH
 
"I looked in the cylinders of the other three and there is a gap between the piston and cylinder wall of about 1/8 inch."
"....it had running problems...."
I bet it did! 1/8 inch = 0.125 inch
 
The other three sleeves just started coming up as i turned the motor by hand, so i just pulled them out leaving the pistons in, for now. I will pull the pistons today and inspect the entire block for other damage.
So the gap between the piston and the sleeve is a mystery// just how did that large of a clearance happen?
You are right, it doesn't matter which sleeve is used the piston size remains the same.
 
"Mystery" is a good word, here, or a bad estimate of fractional inches? Looking at the numbers, if used 0.040 sleeves, then the inside of the sleeve would need to be completely worn away plus eat into the block by another (0.125-0.0400x2) = 0.045 inch in order to achieve your 1/8 inch piston to wall clearance!
 
(quoted from post at 11:53:21 05/03/13) "Mystery" is a good word, here, or a bad estimate of fractional inches? Looking at the numbers, if used 0.040 sleeves, then the inside of the sleeve would need to be completely worn away plus eat into the block by another (0.125-0.0400x2) = 0.045 inch in order to achieve your 1/8 inch piston to wall clearance!

My experience says EVERY N-series engine is a mystery until it is opened up and measured :roll:

tumblr_lx7u24iDdK1qcw3c7o1_400.jpg


Now that I am properly attired I will suggest that they do sell a .083 overbore kit to replace the .090 wall sleeves. The piston bore on them is 2.270. So if someone installed stock pistons in an engine that previously had the oversize pistons in it you would be getting close to that .125. But my trusty assistant Watson cautions that there are many other possibilites as well....

TOH
 
I would guess that the engine was knocking sounding as a loose rod bearing. This would have been the sleeve going up and down. The retainer ring on top of the sleeve was hitting the top of the cylinder bore. The metal failed and the retainer ring broke off and the sleeve was pushed into the crank case and destroyed by the crank shaft. Thus the metal peices of the sleeve. The motor still will run with much less copression on that cylinder. Why so much of a gap in the piston/sleeve is unknown. You must match the block, sleeve and piston for proper repair. This time, I would be very abundant with a sleeve retainer solution when installing them.
 

I don't remember anyone posting they dropped a .090 sleeve nor have I ever seen it myself. I have seen loose and missing in action 40's,,, if it were in my hands it would leave here with 90's...
 
Just speculating ,

If the bore was worn say .010 and someone honed it .005 and re rung it then it would run (poorly) . Hasting Ring manufacturer claims their rings will seal a .012 tapered bore .

The excess blow by probably overheated the sleeves allowing them to move which could have worn the block a little also .

A piston skirt and the lands between the rings are the nominal size for the piston , the top land is smaller for heat expansion . You can usually see the rings on a fresh rebuild if the piston is tdc and you look close .

I would bet the ring gap on the remaining 3 pistons is .040+

Add it all up and you would see a big gap .
 
(quoted from post at 08:58:49 05/04/13) Just speculating ,

If the bore was worn say .010 and someone honed it .005 and re rung it then it would run (poorly) . Hasting Ring manufacturer claims their rings will seal a .012 tapered bore .

The excess blow by probably overheated the sleeves allowing them to move which could have worn the block a little also .

A piston skirt and the lands between the rings are the nominal size for the piston , the top land is smaller for heat expansion . You can usually see the rings on a fresh rebuild if the piston is tdc and you look close .

I would bet the ring gap on the remaining 3 pistons is .040+

Add it all up and you would see a big gap .

He can measure the bore on the sleeveless hole with a ruler. It doesn't have to be accurate to a thou - pretty easy to discrimate 3.267 from 3.367. At that point better advice can be provided.

TOH
 
OK. I am to the point where i can think about re assembly. I found out that the guy who i bought the tractor from had it overhauled, apparently not a good job, several years ago. He ran it some but was making lots of noise so he took it back to the rebuilder who claimed it was OK. The owner then took it home and mowed his pasture and it made a real loud bang and he parked it and that is where it has been for years.
So in conclusion, the motor was overhauled and ran for only a few hours, probably not enough to hurt the block.
My question is
Can that Loctite be used on sleeves that were as loose as these and will they stay in place?
 
(quoted from post at 13:49:17 05/04/13) OK. I am to the point where i can think about re assembly. I found out that the guy who i bought the tractor from had it overhauled, apparently not a good job, several years ago. He ran it some but was making lots of noise so he took it back to the rebuilder who claimed it was OK. The owner then took it home and mowed his pasture and it made a real loud bang and he parked it and that is where it has been for years.
So in conclusion, the motor was overhauled and ran for only a few hours, probably not enough to hurt the block.
My question is
Can that Loctite be used on sleeves that were as loose as these and will they stay in place?

Probably but I have no way of reliably answering because I have no way of reliably knowing how loose they are. Have you determined thin or thick wall sleeves yet? By the S/N it should be thick - if the olds ones are "thin" you have more research to do. I suggest you measure and measure accurately before doing anything.

TOH
 
You bring up a good point about that serial number which is 409777 which by what i read is before the .090 walls were made???
I checked the number on the sleeves that came out and they are 6055E which are the thinwall ones. These just drop in and pull out with no resisteance.
So if this truely is a later block with the thickwall then that would explain why they are so loose.
I friend of mine will come by tomorrow with his measuring things and we can then tell exactly what we have.
 
(quoted from post at 18:18:17 05/04/13) You bring up a good point about that serial number which is 409777 which by what i read is before the .090 walls were made???
I checked the number on the sleeves that came out and they are 6055E which are the thinwall ones. These just drop in and pull out with no resisteance.
So if this truely is a later block with the thickwall then that would explain why they are so loose.
I friend of mine will come by tomorrow with his measuring things and we can then tell exactly what we have.

According to John Smith;'s site the .090 wall sleeves were introduced at sn. 433578 so your block should be .040 wall. But if they just drop in with no resistance you have issues that may well be more than Loctite can fix.

TOH
 

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