1952 Sidemount won't stay running.

nondem

Member
This is the tractor I bought last week: http://www.linearrow.com/tractor/tractor3.jpg
It’s a 1952 Sidemount – the guy who sold it to me said it wasn’t firing and he hadn’t looked deeper…it had sat for a year or two.
[b:289f59d58c]Current Problem[/b:289f59d58c]:
I won’t stay running.
Hard Starting but Starts – runs for a few seconds and sounds pretty normal…then idles down and dies.
Seems to run a few more seconds it sits a minute or two between tries.
I got it started once and was able to keep it running for 2-3 minutes if I hit the starting fluid every 10-15 seconds. I was hoping it would stay going if it got a little warmed up.
[b:289f59d58c]What I have done:[/b:289f59d58c]
When I took a look at the distributor I noticed the points were in bad shape so I took the points-plate off and blew out the distributor housing. That is when I noticed that the little copper strip connecting the electrical through-bolt to the points was cracked in two. I made a replacement then installed New Points/condenser and rotor..I originally “rough-set” the points by eyeball but went back and set the points to .025 as specified when it didn’t run as expected. There was no apparent difference in the symptoms after setting the points correctly.
Tried lots of setting combos between the choke and throttle and found it tends to do better if I have it at 2/3 throttle or more…with some choke(still haven’t perfected that). I also had a friend work the carb rod directly but it didn’t make much difference.
I checked the plugs…all of them look good and the two I checked for spark produced a bright blue spark.
Drained the tank – flushed with fresh gas
Cleaned the sediment bowl and put a new screen/gasket in it and flushed the whole fuel line with fresh gas.
Removed and disassembled carb – cleaned it and reset all of the mixture adjustment screws to the recommended initial settings. I left the idle speed screw alone.
I confirmed there was ample volume of fuel flow all the way to the bowl of the carb by taking the drain bolt out to empty the bowl and then opening the fuel valve….it poured out of there and stopped the second I turned the valve back off.
The float valve is closing and not leaking (sat all night w/the fuel valve open w/o leaking a drop.)
When I took the float off to clean the valve it looked fine and didn’t have any fluid inside it.

[b:289f59d58c]What I haven’t done:[/b:289f59d58c]
I haven’t checked the float level because I didn’t have the measurement handy when I was working.
I also haven’t removed the inline fuel filter…mainly because it flows so freely I can’t imagine it being the problem, it flows as much fuel as the line itself does w/the filter removed.
I haven’t looked at the wiring beyond the distributor – it’s getting good spark and turning over fine and even running properly for a few seconds at a time.
[b:289f59d58c]My humble opinion at this point:[/b:289f59d58c]
It’s getting starved for fuel – possibly because the float is wrong. The way it dies certainly reminds me of what my other ones do when they run out of fuel.
Arguing against that conclusion is that it was “apparently” running Ok before it stopped getting spark…how could a healthy float allasudden get misadjusted?
The last thing I did was clean/readjust the carb mainly because the assumption is that it was set up right when it stopped firing.[u:289f59d58c][/u:289f59d58c]
 
I don't doubt it when you say you have good fuel flow, but how long will it flow like that. Will it fill a pint jar in 2 to 3 minutes. May start out good but then start to dribble. Just a thought.
 


I ran probably 2-3 pints out attempting to flush the carb w/o removing it - letting it fill the bowl and drain it several times. I know the inline fuel filter is redundant and would never put on myself.

Here is a pic of it.

IMG_20130202_154221.jpg
 
You may be in for a carb kit. Flushing only get the fuel in part of it flushed. Main nozze may be plugged. My side mount was doing the same and what I found was the stand pipe in the tank was partially plugged. Had to replace the complete sediment bowl. I would get real good flow until the bowl emptied and then jsut a dribble. Good Luck
 
Opps missed the part where you took the carb apart.

Have you tried it with fuel cap off? thinking plugged vent?
 
In line fuel filter throw it as far away as you can then post back if it runs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I have found when one runs like that that the fuel filter is the cause. I have thrown so many of those away I do not even go to the guys place o do it any more I just tell them to remove it then call me back if that did not fix it and so far the only call back I have gotten was to say yep that fixed it
 
Heh - hats off to you sir. It runs now. With the volume and quantity of fuel that was passing through it I can't believe that was the problem....but it was.

It runs good at any rpm but it still stumbles and backfires a bit when going over a hump or small hill as I drive it around. No smoke/knocking and the 3-pt system appears to work as it should...I think i lucked out on my $500 investment...and it would have been worth that w/a seized engine.



Major-thanks for the advice. I knew that filter didn't belong....

(quoted from post at 13:16:32 02/10/13) In line fuel filter throw it as far away as you can then post back if it runs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I have found when one runs like that that the fuel filter is the cause. I have thrown so many of those away I do not even go to the guys place o do it any more I just tell them to remove it then call me back if that did not fix it and so far the only call back I have gotten was to say yep that fixed it
 
sounds like a for sure fuel issue if you can keep it running on starter fluid.

not saying the points don't need help.. but if you can make it run introducing fuel to the carb.. ignition is at least sufficient.

keep at the carb.

time for wire thru holes, and a flaot check.. and if needed a soak and blow out.
 
Now then if it still back fires that says it is running a tad bit lean open the main jet up a tad bit. Years ago when I got a call to figure out the fuel filter problem I charged the person a case of Busch beer just to throw it away but that got old so I just tell them to pull the filter then call if that does not fix the problem
 
Go down and read the answer hew sent to me. His problem with the in line fuel filter
 
You appear to have adone a systematic check.Here"s what I would do additionally.

Did you check to make sure you had the requisite FAT, BLUISH-WHITE SPARK, the color of lightning? check the spark right when it dies. A worn distributor bushing can cause poor running after start up so check the lateral play in the distributor shaft.

By all means check the float setting. M-S carbs are very sensitive to this adjustment.
Have you cleaned the carb thoroughly? That"s the secret to a good carb rebuild (ask GBinMT). That"s probably more important then new parts unless the old parts are obviously damaged or worn.
 
(quoted from post at 11:07:17 02/10/13)

I ran probably 2-3 pints out attempting to flush the carb w/o removing it - letting it fill the bowl and drain it several times. I know the inline fuel filter is redundant and would never put on myself.

Here is a pic of it.

IMG_20130202_154221.jpg
b:e4ffd43a97][i:e4ffd43a97]

Sorry guys....but I am gonna say somthing here, that might tic a couple of you off!!!!
BTW.....I am one of the "Don't use an added/inline fuel filter" !!!....
(they CAN/WILL SOMETIMES, cause fuel flow problems!!!!!!!!

That said, in this case, I have never seen a filter such as shown in the picture, installed in that configuration.!!!!!
To me....that filter looks to have been installed up-side-down!!!!!!
If that is the case...yes it will leach fuel through it to the carb, BUT, not in the quantity that the carb needs to operate properly!!!!!!

I could be wrong, but I've seen a lot of filters just like that one, in use.... just never installed THAT way.!!!!
Check the picture again............RIGHT? ......WRONG????

GB :? [/i:e4ffd43a97][/b:e4ffd43a97]
 
Well see I would say I understand but I am retired. But I can say this I do remember doing 12 hours straight behind the wheel of a truck and some of those times where you drove out west during the day and drove back at night so that was an 18 hour day or more. Or like when I was in high schools doing a job from 1am to 6 am go to school then do another job for 4 to 6 pm all delivering newspapers. At one time before I joined the navy I was up to around 1800 paper per day 7 days a week
 
If you go down to the last time he posted you will see he posted the fix which by the way was an in line fuel filter which is well known to cause problems
 
I called you a thief when you got this tractor,I stand by it I still say you stole it,now less then a week you asking for help. You have some big you know whats to rub it in like that. It runs but quits. You then post it is a fuel problem which it is just so you can rub it in on us more,even when you knew its a fuel problem.Snicker. It is the fuel problem. Stay the course and when it purrs like a fine machine which it is let us know.Did you check the air filter also? Have fun you lucky devil.
 
(quoted from post at 15:36:00 02/10/13) If you go down to the last time he posted you will see he posted the fix which by the way was an in line fuel filter which is well known to cause problems
b:4e4088ec07][i:4e4088ec07]

Before I replied......I re-read every post and looked at every pic.....(2 in #)
One of the tractor on the traier, and one close-up of the engine, w/filter.

The filter is orientated the SAME in BOTH pix!!!!!!! SAME type of filter!!!!!!! (Both pix.)


What picture are you refering to???????

Gary

[/i:4e4088ec07][/b:4e4088ec07]
 
The only picture I see in this post not the post of a day or so ago. As in down lower where you also answered him but some time after I answered him
 
(quoted from post at 15:56:43 02/10/13) You asked up higher which picture this one just above this post of yours
b:0df5370811][i:0df5370811]

SO, if you only saw one pic., in this post.......you must have missed his first one, where he posted the short-cut to the pic. of the tractor, while it was on the trailer???????

That is what happens when you don't double check BOTH sides of the forum...(MOD...VRS....CLASSIC side!!!)

The pic you saw is his second pic, which I might add, is in my reply to him with that very same pic., in a quote by me.

BOTH pictures have the same fuel filter on his engine,....orientated the SAME way!!!!!!

SO........back to my reply to him w/a quote...........
MY question was/is........is the fuel filter up-side-down......OR NOT!!!!!
MY guess was/is....if YES the filter is up-side-down, then the filter was NOT getting enough fuel to the carb, fast enough to keep the engine running properly!!!!!

END of argueing about whether it was a good idea for that filter.......JUST
YES....OR.....NO was/is the filter up-side-down in his picture?????????

GB :roll: [/i:0df5370811][/b:0df5370811]
 
With out seeing the arrow that should be on it I can not say. I have seen filters that look like that one that could be set on correctly and look like that one and others that it would have been upside down. With being on dial up I have found doing the classic works the best so almost never go to the modern side
 
(quoted from post at 09:45:02 02/10/13) This is the tractor I bought last week: http://www.linearrow.com/tractor/tractor3.jpg
It’s a 1952 Sidemount – the guy who sold it to me said it wasn’t firing and he hadn’t looked deeper…it had sat for a year or two.
[b:03cfea4928]Current Problem[/b:03cfea4928]:
I won’t stay running.
Hard Starting but Starts – runs for a few seconds and sounds pretty normal…then idles down and dies.
Seems to run a few more seconds it sits a minute or two between tries.
I got it started once and was able to keep it running for 2-3 minutes if I hit the starting fluid every 10-15 seconds. I was hoping it would stay going if it got a little warmed up.
[b:03cfea4928]What I have done:[/b:03cfea4928]
When I took a look at the distributor I noticed the points were in bad shape so I took the points-plate off and blew out the distributor housing. That is when I noticed that the little copper strip connecting the electrical through-bolt to the points was cracked in two. I made a replacement then installed New Points/condenser and rotor..I originally “rough-set” the points by eyeball but went back and set the points to .025 as specified when it didn’t run as expected. There was no apparent difference in the symptoms after setting the points correctly.
Tried lots of setting combos between the choke and throttle and found it tends to do better if I have it at 2/3 throttle or more…with some choke(still haven’t perfected that). I also had a friend work the carb rod directly but it didn’t make much difference.
I checked the plugs…all of them look good and the two I checked for spark produced a bright blue spark.
Drained the tank – flushed with fresh gas
Cleaned the sediment bowl and put a new screen/gasket in it and flushed the whole fuel line with fresh gas.
Removed and disassembled carb – cleaned it and reset all of the mixture adjustment screws to the recommended initial settings. I left the idle speed screw alone.
I confirmed there was ample volume of fuel flow all the way to the bowl of the carb by taking the drain bolt out to empty the bowl and then opening the fuel valve….it poured out of there and stopped the second I turned the valve back off.
The float valve is closing and not leaking (sat all night w/the fuel valve open w/o leaking a drop.)
When I took the float off to clean the valve it looked fine and didn’t have any fluid inside it.

[b:03cfea4928]What I haven’t done:[/b:03cfea4928]
I haven’t checked the float level because I didn’t have the measurement handy when I was working.
I also haven’t removed the inline fuel filter…mainly because it flows so freely I can’t imagine it being the problem, it flows as much fuel as the line itself does w/the filter removed.
I haven’t looked at the wiring beyond the distributor – it’s getting good spark and turning over fine and even running properly for a few seconds at a time.
[b:03cfea4928]My humble opinion at this point:[/b:03cfea4928]
It’s getting starved for fuel – possibly because the float is wrong. The way it dies certainly reminds me of what my other ones do when they run out of fuel.
Arguing against that conclusion is that it was “apparently” running Ok before it stopped getting spark…how could a healthy float allasudden get misadjusted?
The last thing I did was clean/readjust the carb mainly because the assumption is that it was set up right when it stopped firing.[u:03cfea4928][/u:03cfea4928]

Nodem, glad you got it fixed. But as GB posted you have the filter upside down. I have used these inline filters on several things. On a 9n for over 10 years with no problems.

trouttman
 

Its on correct and not his problem unless it was restricted are saturated with water... That filter is 1000's of times more efficient than the OEM set up if it did stop up that's what they are for it owes nuttin it did its job... Just in case I may be the only one to know this I will let Y'll in on a trade secret filters are maintenance items :lol:

The mystery is why did it flow with it as good as it did with out it...
 
I was detailed for another project this afternoon so I never got the chance to adjust the mixture for the stumble.

As far as the filter debate: It think it was in the right orientation on there - the element inside is on the downstream end and would make any debris it didn't allow past float around in view like the other filters I've used on motorcycles etc...
The odd thing about it was that it would never "fill up" with gas. it would get about half full at most. Like i said, I let it fill and empty the bowl several times and it was flowing WAY more gas than the engine could possibly burn even at full load. There is no arguing with success though.

(quoted from post at 15:40:27 02/10/13) Now then if it still back fires that says it is running a tad bit lean open the main jet up a tad bit. Years ago when I got a call to figure out the fuel filter problem I charged the person a case of Busch beer just to throw it away but that got old so I just tell them to pull the filter then call if that does not fix the problem
 
Take a real good look at that filter. It should have an arrow on it showing the flow. As for motor cycle filters yep BTDT for the past 42 plus years. Yep have had a motorcycle license now for well 43 years now. Still have a bike but have not rode in a year or more
 
No any more with the price of gas I figure I can buy my own and save or maybe make some $$ that way instead of loosing some $$
 

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