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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO

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Jason1Pa

01-27-2013 15:35:22
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Just for my own curiosity how are you installing the sleeves? TISCO is the only company that even makes them that I"ve come across so if you are not able to find OEM that"s what your getting. Don"t be surprised once you get them in that you wont have to hown them to get the right clearances with the new pistons.




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Bulldozer

01-28-2013 21:35:49
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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to Jason1Pa, 01-27-2013 15:35:22  
Watched your entire series on rebuilding the 2N engine on You Tube.

When I had the TISCO sleeves installed by the machine shop I informed them what you had indicated that there was a variation in all the sleeve OD's.

After doing the job the machine shop confirmed there was at least a .005" variation in sleeve OD. Each hole required a machine different setup.



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kylemorley

01-29-2013 07:10:08
98.217.42.80



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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to Bulldozer, 01-28-2013 21:35:49  
[quote:fdcbc289f7]Bulldozer wrote:

(quoted from post at 06:35:49 01/29/13)

When I had the TISCO sleeves installed by the machine shop I informed them what you had indicated that there was a variation in all the sleeve OD's.
After doing the job the machine shop confirmed there was at least a .005" variation in sleeve OD. Each hole required a machine different setup.
[/quote:fdcbc289f7]

This sort of thing always bothers me because, assuming you are talking about boring the block to take .090 sleeves, you are stuck with the choice of boring the block to standard dimensions, and having your liners not fit (or at the very least need extra honing etc after installation to maintain piston clearance) or bore each hole differently to fit the sleeves, and end up with a non-standard block so there"s no telling what will happen next time some poor fool tries to hammer in a new set of sleeves (unless he can find a replacement set with a similar spread in tolerances).
This post was edited by kylemorley at 07:50:06 01/29/13.

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Jasn1Pa

01-29-2013 04:24:33
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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to Bulldozer, 01-28-2013 21:35:49  
Hoped you liked all the videos! I can't remeber off hand how far out of wack mine were,but once pushed into the block the piston (with no rings)wouldnt even drop down to the bottom..
It makes you mad,but what are you going to do?



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Bulldozer

01-30-2013 09:16:52
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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to Jasn1Pa, 01-29-2013 04:24:33  
The .09" wall sleeves from TISC were prefinished.
The machinist advised that if the sleeves did not require honing to size after installation there is something wrong. The compression stress from the interference fit causes the ID of the sleeve to decrease. If there is insufficient interference fit between the block and the sleeve the sleeves will run hot because of reduction in the heat transfer. The .09" wall sleeves will result in higher contact pressure and therefore less thermal resistance than the .04" wall sleeve.

The new TISCO sleeves were all honed to size with finish for cast iron rings, chrome rings require a different finish, apparently.

Machinist advised the TISCO pistons where all the same size with no variation in diameter.

Next time around would get sleeves from Advanced Sleeve in Mentor, Ohio.

Advanced sleeve advised normal interference fit on sleeves is .002" using sleeve lubricate to install.

Like .09" sleeves, since can go oversize pistons in several steps on future overhauls.

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TheOldHokie

01-30-2013 10:51:39
108.22.206.30



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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to Bulldozer, 01-30-2013 09:16:52  

Bulldozer said: (quoted from post at 13:16:52 01/30/13) The .09" wall sleeves from TISC were prefinished.

The machinist advised that if the sleeves did not require honing to size after installation there is something wrong. The compression stress from the interference fit causes the ID of the sleeve to decrease. If there is insufficient interference fit between the block and the sleeve the sleeves will run hot because of reduction in the heat transfer. The .09" wall sleeves will result in higher contact pressure and therefore less thermal resistance than the .04" wall sleeve.

The new TISCO sleeves were all honed to size with finish for cast iron rings, chrome rings require a different finish, apparently.

Machinist advised the TISCO pistons where all the same size with no variation in diameter.

Next time around would get sleeves from Advanced Sleeve in Mentor, Ohio.

Advanced sleeve advised normal interference fit on sleeves is .002" using sleeve lubricate to install.

Like .09" sleeves, since can go oversize pistons in several steps on future overhauls.


The whole purpose of the sleeved engine design is to not need oversize anything. When you need an engine rebuild you replace the sleeves and pistons with new ones of the same size - $150 for a complete four cylinder kit containg all new rings, pistons, and sleeves. You can do the job it in your back yard or the middle of a corn field and you won't need a machinist to do it. It was common engine design practice in the 40's and 50's with many different OEMS not just Ford. It has fallen out of vogue in recent times probably because modern OEM's don't expect an engine to remain in service anywhere near as long.

The sleeve to block fit specified in the Ford shop manual is .001 interference. If you are using a pre-finished sleeve and piston kit specifically manufactured and packaged for a Ford 120 CID L-head engine that interference is already built into the manufacturing tolerances of the matched parts before they went into the boxes. Most engine shops don't work that way - they custom build and finish everything to size in their shop using generic unmatched parts from multiple sources. If they exceed that .001 interference on the pre-finished and matched Ford sleeve kit you provided they will screw up the built in manufacturing tolerances and likely have to re-size after installation to fix their mistake.

There are as many opinions on proper cylinder finish as there are automotive machinsts in the world. If you bought the pistons and sleeves as a matched kit I'd stick with the cylinder finish that came out of the box.

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 11:00:02 01/30/13 4 times.

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Bulldozer

01-31-2013 08:54:37
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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-30-2013 10:51:39  
Would not even consider replacing the .04" wall sleeves with new .04" wall sleeves.

Jason indicated in his You Tube video the new .04" sleeves needed honing to size for the new pistons which came in the kit. The pistons would not even slide through the sleeve.

My .09" wall TISCO sleeves also required honing even after boring the block the correct size for the sleeves.
Proper engine rebuilding requires honing the new sleeves to correct size.

Understand hammering out old sleeves and pounding to in new sleeves to be shade tree mechanics but was common for the era.

Problem is the manufacturing tolerances on the foreign made TISCO .04" & .09" wall sleeves is so loose,
honing to size is required, unless you are extremely lucky on the draw of the cards
(sleeves).

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TheOldHokie

01-31-2013 09:47:27
108.22.203.84



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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to Bulldozer, 01-31-2013 08:54:37  

Bulldozer said: (quoted from post at 12:54:37 01/31/13) Would not even consider replacing the .04" wall sleeves with new .04" wall sleeves.

Jason indicated in his You Tube video the new .04" sleeves needed honing to size for the new pistons which came in the kit. The pistons would not even slide through the sleeve.

My .09" wall TISCO sleeves also required honing even after boring the block the correct size for the sleeves.

Proper engine rebuilding requires honing the new sleeves to correct size.

Understand hammering out old sleeves and pounding to in new sleeves to be shade tree mechanics but was common for the era.

Problem is the manufacturing tolerances on the foreign made TISCO .04" & .09" wall sleeves is so loose,

honing to size is required, unless you are extremely lucky on the draw of the cards

(sleeves).


Well I can only say my customers must be unusually lucky card players. One called me just yesterday to comment on this thread. He recounted how easy and simple it went for him a little less than a year ago when he replaced his factory .040 sleeves with nothing more than the TISCO .040 sleeves/pistons and one of my OEM style toolkits. He drove the old ones out with the removal tool and the new ones in with the installation tool just as shown in the Ford shop manual. No damaged sleeves and the proper piston clearance with no machining, no honing, no fuss. Just one of many lucky customers who have done it the "old fashion shade tree" way. I've lost count of how many of those tool kits I have sold to "lucky" customers but it's got to be getting close to 100.

Go back through this thread and you will see Jason indicated in his followup to my questions that the piston/sleeve fit on his TISCO parts appeared to be fine when they were unpacked from the box. The pistons fit through the bore in the sleeves fine until AFTER the machine shop installed the sleeves in the block. I wonder how that happened. :roll:

I''d love to stay and chat but I've got work to do in the shop - I have another half-dozen customers waiting on their toolkit orders....

TOH


This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 11:31:10 01/31/13.

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Bulldozer

01-31-2013 21:24:48
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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-31-2013 09:47:27  
The sleeves may have the correct piston clearance in an unstressed state.

However, when the sleeves were installed with the impact driver or shop pressed, the sleeve ID decreases as a result the interference fit with a resulting hoop compression stress in the sleeve wall.

Have seen some videos on You Tube where the there is no interference fit on the N series engine and the new sleeves just drop into the bore and have to be secured with a special Locktite sleeve adhesive.

If the interference fit is excessive the installer may run the chance of cracking the block using an impact driver.

It was not clear from Jason's You Tube video on his 9N engine rebuild ,if he installed the sleeves with the impact driver tool or the machine shop pressed the sleeves into the block.
The episodes that cover this sleeve issue are #10 & #12, ...could not find an episode #11.
According to the video the new pistons would not slide throught the newly installed sleeve(s) without honing to size.

It is more difficult to hone a steel sleeve than a cast iron sleeve or cast iron block.

Since there is a wide variation, .005" ,in the sleeve OD from my own experience, some sleeves compress more in ID than others. If the purchaser is "lucky" and has a .001" interference fit on all the sleeves the piston will probably have acceptable clearance without have to perform a honing procedure.
Also, the original block bore has a manufacturing tolerance.

What do expect for cheap foreign $150/ 4 piston-sleeve set, ...tight tolerances?
Again, if you get lucky no honing is required.

Have rebuit dozens of engines of all types with sleeves, including outboard engines which have a habit of melting pistons and throwing pieces of steel rings. Each rebuild required honing the sleeve to fit the piston , properly with the correct clearance.

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TheOldHokie

01-29-2013 06:43:34
74.110.75.46



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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to Jasn1Pa, 01-29-2013 04:24:33  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Just curious Jason but my limited experience with TISCO sleeve kits is that each piston comes paired with a matching sleeve and each matched pair is packaged on pair per box with the ring-less piston inside the sleeve. Did the pistons fit properly BEFORE the sleeves were installed?

TOH



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Jason1Pa

01-29-2013 07:30:25
71.182.162.209



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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-29-2013 06:43:34  
They did come packed together and I didnt mixed them up however the one that I did try did move up and down but it seemed pretty snug. the block was checked and had a .001 taper from top to bottom. I guess when pushed in it made that much of a difference. I wasnt at the machine shop when he tested the pistons. The machinest was talking to a friend that just did a 9N and he warned him to go on the high side with the specs due to the fact that these newer pistons tend to swell up after the engine gets nice and hot. The friends 9N would run great but if you shut it off and tryed to restart the engine would be too tight. If you'd wait a while and cool it down it would fire back up like a champ..
Where is everyone getting these engine kits that arn't from TISCO? I've never came across parts that arnt made from there.

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TheOldHokie

01-29-2013 08:06:41
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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to Jason1Pa, 01-29-2013 07:30:25  

Jason1Pa said: (quoted from post at 11:30:25 01/29/13) They did come packed together and I didnt mixed them up however the one that I did try did move up and down but it seemed pretty snug. the block was checked and had a .001 taper from top to bottom. I guess when pushed in it made that much of a difference. I wasnt at the machine shop when he tested the pistons. The machinest was talking to a friend that just did a 9N and he warned him to go on the high side with the specs due to the fact that these newer pistons tend to swell up after the engine gets nice and hot. The friends 9N would run great but if you shut it off and tryed to restart the engine would be too tight. If you'd wait a while and cool it down it would fire back up like a champ..

Where is everyone getting these engine kits that arn't from TISCO? I've never came across parts that arnt made from there.


The .001 taper on the block bore is fine. The sleeves are pre-finished and shouldn;t need any fine tuning. I take it you didn't do the installation of the sleeves or fit the pistons to the sleeves after they were installed. So you are reporting the story a you got it from the shop???

I just checked Melling and they stock prefinished and unfinished sleeves for the 120 engine. Unfortunately the manufacturing dimensions in their catalog are clearly not trustworthy - a couple are actually mathematically impossible. I would want to talk to one of their sales reps before I ordered anything from them. FWIW their standard diameter tolerance is -.001/+.001.

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 08:09:27 01/29/13.

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kylemorley

01-28-2013 06:30:05
96.61.91.96



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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to Jason1Pa, 01-27-2013 15:35:22  
Any idea what the Tisco sleeves are made of? If they are steel with the rolled flanges like the old ones in the picture I would be very surprised if they broke unless abused - steel usually bending rather than breaking. However there have been reports here that the current crop of .040" sleeves are iron.

Either way I would want a proper fitting mandrel before I'd try to drive it in (either that or a tank of propane!) - there just isn't much meat on that flange to withstand casual pounding. Though where would one ever find such a tool today, let alone at a reasonable price?

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Bulldozer

01-30-2013 09:19:07
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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to kylemorley, 01-28-2013 06:30:05  
Understand TISCO .04" wall sleeves are steel and .09" wall sleeves are casting iron.



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TheOldHokie

01-28-2013 08:05:29
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 Re: .040 sleeves from TISCO in reply to kylemorley, 01-28-2013 06:30:05  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Is that a TV news style tease :roll:
TOH



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