.040 sleeves from TISCO

phils

New User
Has anyone run into this the sleeve flange is very thin and sits down below the counterbore a few thousands? One flange broke off while installing it. I went and got OEM sleeves and the flanges are the same thickness as the ones I removed. I think I got ripped off as TISCO will not take the ones with the undersized flange back.
 
Just for my own curiosity how are you installing the sleeves? TISCO is the only company that even makes them that I"ve come across so if you are not able to find OEM that"s what your getting. Don"t be surprised once you get them in that you wont have to hown them to get the right clearances with the new pistons.
 
I've not a big fan of Tisco parts because of problems like you just mentioned. If you want to use them you could get the shims that are made to go in the counterbore at the top of the block to raise the sleeves up to get the correct height. It's done on diesels all the time.
 
Agreed.

I avoid TISCO if and when I can except for non critical items, e.g., lynch pins.

Dean
 
Do not try to peel out the sleeves if they are cast iron. There is a process that can be used to peel the .040 steel sleeves by starting a screwdriver sharpened to one side to start the sleeve peeling . If this is tried on the cast iron sleeve I just about guarentee a broken block.

Their is a tool that you can use to drive the sleeves out of the bore with. It is best to have the crankshaft removed to insure that you don't damage the journals by striking them. You could have a machine shop fabricate one by turning a piece of round stock just a little larger than the bore of the cylinders. First turn a piece of stock of about 3/4" to about .020" smaller than the bore, then turn half of the blank to about .020" smaller than the bore of the sleeves. Cut about 3/4" from each side of the turned driver so that it will go into the bottom of the sleeve if the crankshaft is still in the engine and with a 10 or 12 lb hammer and a large drift against the tool drive them out the top of the cylinder. Or you can do it the hard way and fabricate a threaded thingy to straddle the top of the cylinder and use it to crank the sleeve out. Not recommended by me!

If it is the thin cast iron .040 sleeve the best way to remove them is to use a cutting torch or heating torch to heat a portion of the sleeve from top to bottom red hot and then allow to cool to room temperature and then the sleeve will almost fall out. This will not damage the cylinder wall as long as you don’t cut through the sleeve and heat the cylinder wall.

If you are a pretty good welder their is an easier way to get the old sleeves out. Lay the block on it's side and with a 6011 1/8" rod run a cold bead from the bottom of each sleeve to the top. Do this about 3 times in each sleeve and allow them to cool to the touch. You can then either pull them out with your hand or catch the bottom edge with a large screwdriver and tap them out. Be careful not to weld through the old sleeve. After you get the old sleeves out lightly hone or sand the bore where the heat from the welding may have cooked the carbon to the bore slightly. Don't hone much. The new sleeves must have an interference fit.

Don't try to drive the new sleeves in with the tool that you fabricated to pull them out with as that tool will split the sleeves when you try to drive them back in.

You can take a piece of flat plate of at least 1/2" thick and that will completely cover the top of the new sleeve plus about 1" or so and drive the new sleeves down till they are even with the deck of the block You will know when they are even with the deck because they won’t go any farther. You can make a better tool to drive the new sleeves by finding an old automobile rear axle that has a flange with the lugs. Drive out the lugs and cut the axle shaft off about 16” long and use it to drive the sleeves home. Works great!

I have recently found a good way to quick freeze the new sleeves that really speeds installation.
I bought a fitting to use to refill the small blue propane cylinders sold to use on a torch etc. Now I put the fitting on the BBQ propane bottle, turn it upside down and hold the new sleeve opening under the propane flow when the valve is turned on. I wrap the sleeve with a heavy cloth such as a towel and close the bottom of the sleeve with the cloth and around it. It only takes a few seconds of that liquid propane to freeze it solid. Then quickly start it in the bore and drive it down quickly. Most of the time the sleeve will almost fall down into the bore.

Be absolutely sure there is no source of ignition anywhere near when doing this and do it outside for sure.

Zane
 
(quoted from post at 18:43:51 01/27/13) Has anyone run into this the sleeve flange is very thin and sits down below the counterbore a few thousands? One flange broke off while installing it. I went and got OEM sleeves and the flanges are the same thickness as the ones I removed. I think I got ripped off as TISCO will not take the ones with the undersized flange back.

I have not heard of this problem from any of my sleeve tool customers who are using the Tisco sleeves. The "flange" at the top of the OEM .040 steel sleeves was really nothing more than a flared top edge and very easily broken. Here are a couple pictures of what I believe to be a 1941 engine with OEM sleeves. As you can see the" flange" is simply a rolled edge around the top of the sleeve and is the same thickness as the sleeve wall (,040). The counterbore in the block measures approximately .040 deep x 3.370 diameter. If your block and old sleeves do not look like that it has probably been reworked for aftermarket sleeves with a different flange. A good person to talk to about your concerns with the Tisco sleeves would be Don Barkley at nnalert's. They sell the Tisco sleeves and have rebuilt many engines using them.

TOH


OEM040wallsleeve.jpg


IMG_1824.jpg


OEMcounterbore.jpg
 
Any idea what the Tisco sleeves are made of? If they are steel with the rolled flanges like the old ones in the picture I would be very surprised if they broke unless abused - steel usually bending rather than breaking. However there have been reports here that the current crop of .040" sleeves are iron.

Either way I would want a proper fitting mandrel before I'd try to drive it in (either that or a tank of propane!) - there just isn't much meat on that flange to withstand casual pounding. Though where would one ever find such a tool today, let alone at a reasonable price?
 
(quoted from post at 07:41:41 01/28/13)
(quoted from post at 18:43:51 01/27/13) Has anyone run into this the sleeve flange is very thin and sits down below the counterbore a few thousands? One flange broke off while installing it. I went and got OEM sleeves and the flanges are the same thickness as the ones I removed. I think I got ripped off as TISCO will not take the ones with the undersized flange back.

I have not heard of this problem from any of my sleeve tool customers who are using the Tisco sleeves. The "flange" at the top of the OEM .040 steel sleeves was really nothing more than a flared top edge and very easily broken. Here are a couple pictures of what I believe to be a 1941 engine with OEM sleeves. As you can see the" flange" is simply a rolled edge around the top of the sleeve and is the same thickness as the sleeve wall (,040). The counterbore in the block measures approximately .040 deep x 3.370 diameter. If your block and old sleeves do not look like that it has probably been reworked for aftermarket sleeves with a different flange. A good person to talk to about your concerns with the Tisco sleeves would be Don Barkley at nnalert's. They sell the Tisco sleeves and have rebuilt many engines using them.

TOH


OEM040wallsleeve.jpg


IMG_1824.jpg


OEMcounterbore.jpg
b:82903b4cbf][i:82903b4cbf]

As, TOH says.....:"I have not heard of this problem from any of my sleeve tool customers who are using the Tisco sleeves. The "flange" at the top of the OEM .040 steel sleeves was really nothing more than a flared top edge and very easily broken." end quote!
I used the 'TISCO' sleeve and piston kit from YT, to install into, a 1942 9N block(per ser#), to replace my 44 2N engine about one yr. ago.
I had NO problems with the removal, and instellation, of these .040 sleeves and, stock bore pistons. Right tools, for the JOB!!!
My sleeve removal/install kit, from TOH......
Mysleevetoolskit.jpg

Sleeves removal...(took about 20-25 mins, w/the .040 removal puck..:
oldsleevesout.jpg

After block cleaned and prep...New sleeves installed, using the heavy install Mandrel (took aprox.30-35 min's)
Newsleevespistonsin.jpg


Nothing broken, and easy as pie :D
Hermie the 2N, is still runnig strong!!!!

GB :) [/i:82903b4cbf][/b:82903b4cbf]
 
(quoted from post at 10:30:05 01/28/13) Either way I would want a proper fitting mandrel before I'd try to drive it in (either that or a tank of propane!) - there just isn't much meat on that flange to withstand casual pounding. Though where would one ever find such a tool today, let alone at a reasonable price?

Is that a TV news style tease :roll:

TOH
 
I have the proper tools for installation and removal of the sleeves.

And yes I do freeze them first to ease installation.

I"ll measure the flange and post my results but the Ford OEM. sleeves that I did get DO have a thicker flange ?

Thanks for all of your feed back.
 
Watched your entire series on rebuilding the 2N engine on You Tube.

When I had the TISCO sleeves installed by the machine shop I informed them what you had indicated that there was a variation in all the sleeve OD's.

After doing the job the machine shop confirmed there was at least a .005" variation in sleeve OD. Each hole required a machine different setup.
 
(quoted from post at 06:35:49 01/29/13) Watched your entire series on rebuilding the 2N engine on You Tube.

When I had the TISCO sleeves installed by the machine shop I informed them what you had indicated that there was a variation in all the sleeve OD's.

After doing the job the machine shop confirmed there was at least a .005" variation in sleeve OD. Each hole required a machine different setup.
uess they took a few extra bucks out of you wallet on that story didn't they? :lol:
 
(quoted from post at 02:00:35 01/29/13)
(quoted from post at 06:35:49 01/29/13) Watched your entire series on rebuilding the 2N engine on You Tube.

When I had the TISCO sleeves installed by the machine shop I informed them what you had indicated that there was a variation in all the sleeve OD's.

After doing the job the machine shop confirmed there was at least a .005" variation in sleeve OD. Each hole required a machine different setup.
uess they took a few extra bucks out of you wallet on that story didn't they? :lol:

Kind of makes you wonder how all the people that have rebuilt engines in their barns or backyards using those TISCO sleeves managed it. I think that shop would be off my list of preferred providers :twisted:

TOH
 
Hoped you liked all the videos! I can't remeber off hand how far out of wack mine were,but once pushed into the block the piston (with no rings)wouldnt even drop down to the bottom..
It makes you mad,but what are you going to do?
 
(quoted from post at 08:24:33 01/29/13) Hoped you liked all the videos! I can't remeber off hand how far out of wack mine were,but once pushed into the block the piston (with no rings)wouldnt even drop down to the bottom..
It makes you mad,but what are you going to do?

Just curious Jason but my limited experience with TISCO sleeve kits is that each piston comes paired with a matching sleeve and each matched pair is packaged on pair per box with the ring-less piston inside the sleeve. Did the pistons fit properly BEFORE the sleeves were installed?

TOH
 
Bulldozer wrote:
(quoted from post at 06:35:49 01/29/13)
When I had the TISCO sleeves installed by the machine shop I informed them what you had indicated that there was a variation in all the sleeve OD's.

After doing the job the machine shop confirmed there was at least a .005" variation in sleeve OD. Each hole required a machine different setup.

This sort of thing always bothers me because, assuming you are talking about boring the block to take .090 sleeves, you are stuck with the choice of boring the block to standard dimensions, and having your liners not fit (or at the very least need extra honing etc after installation to maintain piston clearance) or bore each hole differently to fit the sleeves, and end up with a non-standard block so there"s no telling what will happen next time some poor fool tries to hammer in a new set of sleeves (unless he can find a replacement set with a similar spread in tolerances).
 
They did come packed together and I didnt mixed them up however the one that I did try did move up and down but it seemed pretty snug. the block was checked and had a .001 taper from top to bottom. I guess when pushed in it made that much of a difference. I wasnt at the machine shop when he tested the pistons. The machinest was talking to a friend that just did a 9N and he warned him to go on the high side with the specs due to the fact that these newer pistons tend to swell up after the engine gets nice and hot. The friends 9N would run great but if you shut it off and tryed to restart the engine would be too tight. If you'd wait a while and cool it down it would fire back up like a champ..
Where is everyone getting these engine kits that arn't from TISCO? I've never came across parts that arnt made from there.
 
(quoted from post at 11:30:25 01/29/13) They did come packed together and I didnt mixed them up however the one that I did try did move up and down but it seemed pretty snug. the block was checked and had a .001 taper from top to bottom. I guess when pushed in it made that much of a difference. I wasnt at the machine shop when he tested the pistons. The machinest was talking to a friend that just did a 9N and he warned him to go on the high side with the specs due to the fact that these newer pistons tend to swell up after the engine gets nice and hot. The friends 9N would run great but if you shut it off and tryed to restart the engine would be too tight. If you'd wait a while and cool it down it would fire back up like a champ..
Where is everyone getting these engine kits that arn't from TISCO? I've never came across parts that arnt made from there.

The .001 taper on the block bore is fine. The sleeves are pre-finished and shouldn;t need any fine tuning. I take it you didn't do the installation of the sleeves or fit the pistons to the sleeves after they were installed. So you are reporting the story a you got it from the shop???

I just checked Melling and they stock prefinished and unfinished sleeves for the 120 engine. Unfortunately the manufacturing dimensions in their catalog are clearly not trustworthy - a couple are actually mathematically impossible. I would want to talk to one of their sales reps before I ordered anything from them. FWIW their standard diameter tolerance is -.001/+.001.

TOH
 
The .09" wall sleeves from TISC were prefinished.
The machinist advised that if the sleeves did not require honing to size after installation there is something wrong. The compression stress from the interference fit causes the ID of the sleeve to decrease. If there is insufficient interference fit between the block and the sleeve the sleeves will run hot because of reduction in the heat transfer. The .09" wall sleeves will result in higher contact pressure and therefore less thermal resistance than the .04" wall sleeve.

The new TISCO sleeves were all honed to size with finish for cast iron rings, chrome rings require a different finish, apparently.

Machinist advised the TISCO pistons where all the same size with no variation in diameter.

Next time around would get sleeves from Advanced Sleeve in Mentor, Ohio.

Advanced sleeve advised normal interference fit on sleeves is .002" using sleeve lubricate to install.

Like .09" sleeves, since can go oversize pistons in several steps on future overhauls.
 
(quoted from post at 13:16:52 01/30/13) The .09" wall sleeves from TISC were prefinished.
The machinist advised that if the sleeves did not require honing to size after installation there is something wrong. The compression stress from the interference fit causes the ID of the sleeve to decrease. If there is insufficient interference fit between the block and the sleeve the sleeves will run hot because of reduction in the heat transfer. The .09" wall sleeves will result in higher contact pressure and therefore less thermal resistance than the .04" wall sleeve.

The new TISCO sleeves were all honed to size with finish for cast iron rings, chrome rings require a different finish, apparently.

Machinist advised the TISCO pistons where all the same size with no variation in diameter.

Next time around would get sleeves from Advanced Sleeve in Mentor, Ohio.

Advanced sleeve advised normal interference fit on sleeves is .002" using sleeve lubricate to install.

Like .09" sleeves, since can go oversize pistons in several steps on future overhauls.

The whole purpose of the sleeved engine design is to not need oversize anything. When you need an engine rebuild you replace the sleeves and pistons with new ones of the same size - $150 for a complete four cylinder kit containg all new rings, pistons, and sleeves. You can do the job it in your back yard or the middle of a corn field and you won't need a machinist to do it. It was common engine design practice in the 40's and 50's with many different OEMS not just Ford. It has fallen out of vogue in recent times probably because modern OEM's don't expect an engine to remain in service anywhere near as long.

The sleeve to block fit specified in the Ford shop manual is .001 interference. If you are using a pre-finished sleeve and piston kit specifically manufactured and packaged for a Ford 120 CID L-head engine that interference is already built into the manufacturing tolerances of the matched parts before they went into the boxes. Most engine shops don't work that way - they custom build and finish everything to size in their shop using generic unmatched parts from multiple sources. If they exceed that .001 interference on the pre-finished and matched Ford sleeve kit you provided they will screw up the built in manufacturing tolerances and likely have to re-size after installation to fix their mistake.

There are as many opinions on proper cylinder finish as there are automotive machinsts in the world. If you bought the pistons and sleeves as a matched kit I'd stick with the cylinder finish that came out of the box.

TOH
 
Would not even consider replacing the .04" wall sleeves with new .04" wall sleeves.

Jason indicated in his You Tube video the new .04" sleeves needed honing to size for the new pistons which came in the kit. The pistons would not even slide through the sleeve.

My .09" wall TISCO sleeves also required honing even after boring the block the correct size for the sleeves.
Proper engine rebuilding requires honing the new sleeves to correct size.

Understand hammering out old sleeves and pounding to in new sleeves to be shade tree mechanics but was common for the era.

Problem is the manufacturing tolerances on the foreign made TISCO .04" & .09" wall sleeves is so loose,
honing to size is required, unless you are extremely lucky on the draw of the cards
(sleeves).
 
(quoted from post at 12:54:37 01/31/13) Would not even consider replacing the .04" wall sleeves with new .04" wall sleeves.

Jason indicated in his You Tube video the new .04" sleeves needed honing to size for the new pistons which came in the kit. The pistons would not even slide through the sleeve.

My .09" wall TISCO sleeves also required honing even after boring the block the correct size for the sleeves.
Proper engine rebuilding requires honing the new sleeves to correct size.

Understand hammering out old sleeves and pounding to in new sleeves to be shade tree mechanics but was common for the era.

Problem is the manufacturing tolerances on the foreign made TISCO .04" & .09" wall sleeves is so loose,
honing to size is required, unless you are extremely lucky on the draw of the cards
(sleeves).

Well I can only say my customers must be unusually lucky card players. One called me just yesterday to comment on this thread. He recounted how easy and simple it went for him a little less than a year ago when he replaced his factory .040 sleeves with nothing more than the TISCO .040 sleeves/pistons and one of my OEM style toolkits. He drove the old ones out with the removal tool and the new ones in with the installation tool just as shown in the Ford shop manual. No damaged sleeves and the proper piston clearance with no machining, no honing, no fuss. Just one of many lucky customers who have done it the "old fashion shade tree" way. I've lost count of how many of those tool kits I have sold to "lucky" customers but it's got to be getting close to 100.

Go back through this thread and you will see Jason indicated in his followup to my questions that the piston/sleeve fit on his TISCO parts appeared to be fine when they were unpacked from the box. The pistons fit through the bore in the sleeves fine until AFTER the machine shop installed the sleeves in the block. I wonder how that happened. :roll:

I''d love to stay and chat but I've got work to do in the shop - I have another half-dozen customers waiting on their toolkit orders....

TOH

IMG_0623-1.jpg
 
The sleeves may have the correct piston clearance in an unstressed state.

However, when the sleeves were installed with the impact driver or shop pressed, the sleeve ID decreases as a result the interference fit with a resulting hoop compression stress in the sleeve wall.

Have seen some videos on You Tube where the there is no interference fit on the N series engine and the new sleeves just drop into the bore and have to be secured with a special Locktite sleeve adhesive.

If the interference fit is excessive the installer may run the chance of cracking the block using an impact driver.

It was not clear from Jason's You Tube video on his 9N engine rebuild ,if he installed the sleeves with the impact driver tool or the machine shop pressed the sleeves into the block.
The episodes that cover this sleeve issue are #10 & #12, ...could not find an episode #11.
According to the video the new pistons would not slide throught the newly installed sleeve(s) without honing to size.

It is more difficult to hone a steel sleeve than a cast iron sleeve or cast iron block.

Since there is a wide variation, .005" ,in the sleeve OD from my own experience, some sleeves compress more in ID than others. If the purchaser is "lucky" and has a .001" interference fit on all the sleeves the piston will probably have acceptable clearance without have to perform a honing procedure.
Also, the original block bore has a manufacturing tolerance.

What do expect for cheap foreign $150/ 4 piston-sleeve set, ...tight tolerances?
Again, if you get lucky no honing is required.

Have rebuit dozens of engines of all types with sleeves, including outboard engines which have a habit of melting pistons and throwing pieces of steel rings. Each rebuild required honing the sleeve to fit the piston , properly with the correct clearance.
 
...........The sleeves may have the correct piston clearance in an unstressed state.

.......(may)have to be secured with a special Locktite sleeve adhesive.

......If the interference fit is excessive the installer may run the chance of cracking the block using an impact driver.

......Again, if you get lucky no honing is required.

......Each rebuild required honing the sleeve to fit the piston , properly with the correct clearance.

This forum has always been interesting and the topics can be educational especially when we get "technical" on a specific subject .

99.99% of the time a machine , hydraulic , electrical , etc. installation works just fine , but then there is the .01% all ten factors are bad and the system does not work as it should .

Out of the 100's of thousands rebuilt you would expect some flaws , the other 99% work just fine .

I would say the human factor is the biggest flaw , ie , installing a sleeve in a rusty or contaminated cylinder , boring to the wrong I.D. , improper installation and wrinkling a thin sleeve , etc .
 

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