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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

Re: Bulldozer- weak axle

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TheOldHokie

01-27-2013 07:42:44
108.22.203.170



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Bulldozer said: (quoted from post at 22:40:18 01/26/13) The estimated ~420# is the extra vertical static load applied at the hole in the axle through the king pin and bushing load path that the N series tractor could safely handle from accessories, etc.
The weight of the tire, wheel, splindle and any extra wheel weights do not contribute any gravity load to the center axle.

Since the axle is cast steel the material inherently has casting flaws (voids), which reduces the strength of the material compared to the same material being hot rolled, cold rolled or forged. However, the chances of the casting having a flaw in the region of maximum stress is rather remote ,but the allowable working load would be determined based on the void occuring in the worst possible spot, unless x-rayed.


I am no fan of loaders on N-series tractors BUT it seems odd that the factory engineers missed something that fundamental when they designed the Ford Industrial loader with a payload capacity of 1000#. Ford provided factory mounting kits for the 8N as well as the NAA, and Hundred series tractors mentioned in this brochure and all of those tractors used basically the same cast center axle. I guess this guy has no idea the danger he is in....

TOH

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This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 10:41:52 01/27/13.

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Bulldozer

01-28-2013 06:45:51
24.165.92.6



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 Re: Bulldozer- weak axle in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-27-2013 07:42:44  
Good work TOH.

Found three N series front end loaders on ebay.
One is a "Dearborn Farm Equipment" label loader, mounted on the tractor.
Another appears to be a home brew design mounted on the tractor
The third is a basket case & removed from the tractor.

The two tractor mounted loaders appear to be attached to the front axle support weldment allowing rotational movement of the front axle about the king pin.
This design places the king pin and center axle hole in the load path to ground, placing load on the weakest spot on the center axle.

However, the Ford industrial loader you posted appears to be attached to the front knee, which is cast steel. Noticed there are two holes on the knee extension adjacent to the vertical cylinder that houses the forged spindle.

These holes are not used to attach the center axle to the knee extension.
Believe this to be the attachement point for the Ford "industrial" loader. This attachment point takes the center axle out of the load path to ground. This attachment point would be much prefered over using the center weldment support,
as was used on the Dear farm equipment design.
However, using the knee extension holes to attach the loader frame would fix the center axle and prevent it from rotation.

Found a 1959 sales brochure for a Ford 703 loader design for a NAA, 8N , Oliver, 55 MF tractor with a 1300# load capacity.
The brochure is titled" Ford extra heavy duty loader series 703".

This loader also appears to be attached to the knee extension rather than the center support.

After many years of farm work fatigue cracks could develop in the axle sand casting or knee extension sand castings, even if there were no initial flaws in the castings. My 8N spent 60 years plowing corn fields in Merced, CA.

Before straping on a loader to N series, would have the center axle and knee extension parts checked for cracks, especially for the center support mounted type for safety.

After checking the center axle and knee extension for cracks could increase the allowable working load on the center support from 400# to 800# and believe N series would safely handle a 1000# payload on the Dearborn Farm Equipment type loader, since a portion of the pay load and loader frame weight is shared by the rear axle.

For comparison found some loader ratings on current tractors of similiar HP to the N series.

NH T1500, 30 HP: 875# load capacity
JD 1 series,22-25 HP: 825# load capacity
JD 2000 series, 24-30 HP: 1023# capacity
JD 3000 series 23-30 HP: 1186# capacity

These tractors all have support frames for the engine rather than a "stressed engine design" like the N series..
All have fixed front axles that do not rotate compared the N series.
The loaders are attached to the fabricated tractor frame with no sand cast parts.

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TheOldHokie

01-28-2013 08:02:40
74.110.75.46



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 Re: Bulldozer- weak axle in reply to Bulldozer, 01-28-2013 06:45:51  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Nope. All model variants of the Ford Industrial loader attached to the front axle bolster just like the older Dearborn loaders. Item #2 in the Ford parts diagram shown below is the attaching bracket used on the 8N and item #3 is the attaching bracket used on the NAA and Hundred series. All of the front end load from the Industrial loader is carried by the center hole in the front axle on all of those machines and that is way, way more than 400# regardless of the improved lift geometry. Broken spot welds and hogged pivot holes on the bolster assembly from the added loads are a very common failure with all of these loaders but I have never heard of a fractured axle caused by any loader.

On all of these tractors the axle pivots in the center and that pivot point is the load path for any load that isn't attached directly to the front axle, axle extensions, or wheels. Since the axle and it's extensions pivot up and down with the terrain they are a very poor attachment point for a loader. The only loader I have ever seen that attached to the axle or it's extensions on any Ford tractor are the old N-series Sauder loaders which flopped around with the axles and were darn near unusable. Aside from their quick attach feature they were an absolutely horrible design.

TOH

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Bulldozer

01-31-2013 09:38:26
24.165.92.6



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 Re: Bulldozer- weak axle in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-28-2013 08:02:40  
Have reseached this front loader attachment thing some more.

Found the sales brochure for the Ford Industrial Step-On loader you previously posted.
Believe is the same as the Ford extra heavy duty series 703 loader.

Also the brackets shown in your last post are hydraulic pump attachment brackets for thr FORD 68 standard loader, Ford heavy duty loader and Ford 79 standard loader and not the loader frame front attachment bracket.
The graphic appears to be is taken from the Supplement No 3, master parts books.
This parts book show two 1" bolts in Figure 4 for attaching loader fram to bracket.
However, the bracket shown in figure 6 does not appear to interface with an N series, maybe a 600 series.

I agree with you on the location of the loader frame front support for all of the Ford Dearborn front end loaders where the attachment is to a replacement king pin or to the axle center support weldment.

It appears that on the Ford 19-8A or 19-22 the original king pin is replaced with another king pin with a steel plate welded to the king pin. The king pin plate has two holes that interface with a steel plate welded to the loader frame.

Maybe other Ford loaders manufactured for N series has this type of front attachment design.

However , found the parts manual for the Ford 19-7 ,where front attachment appears to interface with four bolt holes on the axle center support engine pan holes. There are two bracket plates, one each side of the center support.

A free body diagram of the loader support frame indicates a force is applied at the axle hole ~ 2800# ,based on 1000# payload and bucket weight at lowest position. The greatest load is applied to the from axle in the lowest bucket position.

Need to firm up some geometry to better converge on this applied axle force at the center.

I know there is low probability for castropic failure of the cast axle part, but it would not get an FAA certification for flight.
It's a tractor.

Still do not understand the rotation feature front axle.
Seems like for a front end loader it would more desirable for the front axle to be fixed.

All the NH & JD utility tractor brochures show a front end loader on the cover. This still must be the hot ticker demand for utility tractors.

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TheOldHokie

01-31-2013 10:12:17
108.22.203.84



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 Re: Bulldozer- weak axle in reply to Bulldozer, 01-31-2013 09:38:26  

Bulldozer said: (quoted from post at 13:38:26 01/31/13) Have reseached this front loader attachment thing some more.

Found the sales brochure for the Ford Industrial Step-On loader you previously posted.

Believe is the same as the Ford extra heavy duty series 703 loader.

Also the brackets shown in your last post are hydraulic pump attachment brackets for thr FORD 68 standard loader, Ford heavy duty loader and Ford 79 standard loader and not the loader frame front attachment bracket.

The graphic appears to be is taken from the Supplement No 3, master parts books.

This parts book show two 1" bolts in Figure 4 for attaching loader fram to bracket.

However, the bracket shown in figure 6 does not appear to interface with an N series, maybe a 600 series.

I agree with you on the location of the loader frame front support for all of the Ford Dearborn front end loaders where the attachment is to a replacement king pin or to the axle center support weldment.

It appears that on the Ford 19-8A or 19-22 the original king pin is replaced with another king pin with a steel plate welded to the king pin. The king pin plate has two holes that interface with a steel plate welded to the loader frame.

Maybe other Ford loaders manufactured for N series has this type of front attachment design.

However , found the parts manual for the
Ford 19-7 ,where front attachment appears to interface with four bolt holes on the axle center support engine pan holes. There are two bracket plates, one each side of the center support.
A free body diagram of the loader support frame indicates a force is applied at the
axle hole ~ 2800# ,based on 1000# payload and bucket weight at lowest position. The greatest load is applied to the from axle in the lowest bucket position.

Need to firm up some geometry to better converge on this applied axle force at the center.

I know there is low probability for castropic failure of the cast axle part, but it would not get an FAA certification for flight.

It's a tractor.

Still do not understand the rotation feature front axle.

Seems like for a front end loader it would more desirable for the front axle to be fixed.

All the NH & JD utility tractor brochures show a front end loader on the cover. This still must be the hot ticker demand for utility tractors.


Look - you can argue all you want but I build and sell reproductions of these brackets and I have studied them to death. They all attach to the bolster in one way or another and the brackets in that parts diagram are the front hanger for all of the variously numbered variants of the Ford industrial loaders. The loader has two large pins in the subframe that fit into the large reinforced holes on the bottom outside corners of that front hanger. The 8N version of that hanger also had struts that attach to the bottom of the bolster to further stiffen the hanger.

There have been a multitude of variations on this central design and some versions mount the pump to the hanger - others mount the pump on the loader frame. But the bolster bracket always acts as the front hanger for the loader and all of that weight is carried by the axle center section. It never gets airborne and it handles the additional load fine.

Off the top of my head I can't think of of any model rubber tired agricultural tractor that has a fixed front axle.

The picture below is one of my reproductions of the Dearborn (aka Ford) designed hanger for the 19-8 loader used on the Ford 9N. It is the design that is the basis for all of the later variants.

TOH


This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 15:30:51 01/31/13 2 times.

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Bulldozer

01-31-2013 21:53:21
24.165.92.6



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 Re: Bulldozer- weak axle in reply to TheOldHokie, 01-31-2013 10:12:17  
Yes, the unpainted plate, welded to the replacement king pin seems to be the design for the Dearborn N series front end loaders.

Have found Dearborn parts manuals where this replacement king pin/plate weldment was bolted to the loader frame.

Have seen this same plate/king pin in operating manuals with 9N riveted center support and the 8N welment center support.

Have studied many archives where a guy bought a Dearborn loader and could not figure out to attach it to the front. Nothing fit. Believe they finally realized the original king pin would have to removed.

If you look at the design of the NH 1500 utility tractor, JD utility series 1000,2000,3000 all have fixed front axles to the frame.

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