What were they thinking?

notjustair

Well-known Member
Just came in from evening chores. It's a cold one out there - 19 degrees gets in you bones. I love my chore tractor but about right now a cab would be nice.

I was thinking about this as I closed up the shed - what were the designers of the N series thinking when they made reverse so fast? I know it has been talked about before, but I don't remember hearing an answer. Course, we weren't around when they were designed.

I got to thinking about it because I will bet that's where the clutch wear comes from if they were used for some chores. I can't think of a case where I backed up around the farm that I took my foot completely off the clutch. They aren't big enough of course, but I would hate to do much chore work with one just for that. They are a fun little yard tractor but man that reverse is insane.
 
I completely agree with you. The utility of the N would have been greatly improved by a slower 1st and an R1 and R2 or a slower R1.

Nonetheless, they are impressive machines and I love'em.

Colin, MN

PS: Never got above a minus 8 here today.
 
I'll bet that if the TheOldHokie put his mind to it he could make us a set of gears to about half the speed of the 8N four speed reverse??????

Zane
 
Can't really tell by looking at the parts book breakdown of the 8N transmission but it looks like the reverse idler could be made twice it's current size and the gear on the cluster gear half it's present size and a hunk be cut out of the transmission housing to make room for the idler gear and a big patch be welded over the too big gear?????????????

Zane
 
It is just to bad there are not a lot of Sherman "step down" trannys. I would be interested in at least 3. joe
 
(quoted from post at 19:20:18 01/21/13) Can't really tell by looking at the parts book breakdown of the 8N transmission but it looks like the reverse idler could be made twice it's current size and the gear on the cluster gear half it's present size and a hunk be cut out of the transmission housing to make room for the idler gear and a big patch be welded over the too big gear?????????????

Zane
ohn Smith went through all this reverse gear stuff in a post a few years ago, comparing 8N to NAA and IF I remember correctly, the 8N shared maybe 2nd or 3rd with reverse and with NAA they added a dedicated reverse idler drive gear to get a lower reverse. But you can't swap them.
 
NJA,
I agree!! Not sure,but I think the reverse on my 8N is faster than my 2N. It gets tough when moving a trailer half clutched that has 1000 plus pounds of firewood on it. As one forum member mentioned, still enjoy the N tractors.
Tonight it will approach 30 degrees below zero, no added wind chill. Dangerous wind chill advisory in effect til Tuesday morning.
Mr. T. Minnesota
 
(quoted from post at 20:27:53 01/21/13) NJA,
I agree!! Not sure,but I think the reverse on my 8N is faster than my 2N. It gets tough when moving a trailer half clutched that has 1000 plus pounds of firewood on it. As one forum member mentioned, still enjoy the N tractors.
Tonight it will approach 30 degrees below zero, no added wind chill. Dangerous wind chill advisory in effect til Tuesday morning.
Mr. T. Minnesota
our 2N/8N impression is correct.
 
you can use a sherman trans up to a 1964 in an 8N all you have to do is change the clutch disc. The NAA disc has the correct spline. I have a three speed trans. Just missing the mounting plate. I have seen a machine shop make that part.
 
I have an 8N with the NAA "hump" for the oversize reverse idler but it is not slower than any other. Same old 8N reverse.

Zane
 
With ya on a Sherman low. I had heard that 2nd and rev. were the same ratio,but I really never looked.Even step down for 1st and reverse alone.
 
Bingo.

Ford was/is an automotive company.

The top three design criteria for automotive manufacturers have long been:

1. cost;

2. cost;

3. cost.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 11:12:53 01/22/13) They might have been thinking, "how can we save a nickel?"

When you are working a tractor usually you are going forward. Plowing you might go for hours without using reverse. When you need reverse, for what ever reason, you want to do it quick so you can get back to work!
Works for me!!! LOL
 
Instead of trying to engineer different gears for the transmission that require cutting and patching the case, why not just create an auxillary transmission like a sherman but one that just reverses the input from the clutch.

Pooh Bear
 
(quoted from post at 22:18:57 01/21/13)
(quoted from post at 11:12:53 01/22/13) They might have been thinking, "how can we save a nickel?"

When you are working a tractor usually you are going forward. Plowing you might go for hours without using reverse. When you need reverse, for what ever reason, you want to do it quick so you can get back to work!
Works for me!!! LOL
can appreciate what you say, but it really depends on what "work" a person is doing. Sometimes, it is entirely too fast. Apparently Ford got the message & slowed them down with NAA, hundreds, etc.
 
They really scoot in reverse. Even with the combo in low, mines pretty fast. If I'm doing finicky reverse work I use the Ferg or a 3spd N.
 
When I was kid we had a 9N and a 8N on the farm. I loved the 8N because reverse was fast compared to the "old 9N" and I guess I assumed Henry and his tractor guys improved the reverse in the 8N because the 9N was so slow backing up. Much of the backing I did with the tractors was "rocking to get unstuck" and plowing deep snow with a rear-mounted grader-blade and I liked to go fast in reverse to get momentum to move the snow backing up.
Now that I am older and wiser(slower) my NAA has just the right speed in reverse because the old head& neck don't rotate as far or as fast and if the snow is too deep to move I just hunker-down and stay inside the house till it melts...:>)
 
My first tractor was a 2N that I got from my father.
The engine must have been fairly fresh as it really ran good and I used the heck out of it for a couple of years. Along the way I found this site and learned about the improvements Ford had made to the 8Ns - position control, a real drawbar, both brakes on the right side and 4 speeds instead of 3.
So I bought a clean but smokey 8N, switched the engines and sold the 2N.
When I got the 8N running and learned how fast reverse was in it I was thoroughly disapointed - even disgusted with the tractor. Why anyone would design such a thing as that I'll never know.
Some folks say that the biggest drawback to an 8N is their lack of live hydraulics. I thought it was that waaay too fast reverse. But that's why I started looking for a later model Ford.
And the rest as they say, is history.
 
(quoted from post at 19:12:10 01/21/13) I'll bet that if the TheOldHokie put his mind to it he could make us a set of gears to about half the speed of the 8N four speed reverse??????

Zane

Thanks for the vote of confidence Zane :oops: I have put my mind to it and have produced gearing for 5 prototype gearboxes. In keeping with the Zane Sherman tradition of "fun" product naming I dubbed it the HokiePokie :roll: The gears are made and all that remains is to find time to finish the gear carrier ant the modiications to the Ford PTO shifter and linkage mechanism. Then it's install and test the thing. The reduction ratio is 3.5:1 in all gears forward and reverse so the speed reduction is significant - e.g. roto-tilling speeds.

TOH

Click on the thumbs for a bigger image.

 
(quoted from post at 09:47:19 01/22/13)
(quoted from post at 19:12:10 01/21/13) I'll bet that if the TheOldHokie put his mind to it he could make us a set of gears to about half the speed of the 8N four speed reverse??????

Zane

Thanks for the vote of confidence Zane :oops: I have put my mind to it and have produced gearing for 5 prototype gearboxes. In keeping with the Zane Sherman tradition of "fun" product naming I dubbed it the HokiePokie :roll: The gears are made and all that remains is to find time to finish the gear carrier ant the modiications to the Ford PTO shifter and linkage mechanism. Then it's install and test the thing. The reduction ratio is 3.5:1 in all gears forward and reverse so the speed reduction is significant - e.g. roto-tilling speeds.

TOH

Click on the thumbs for a bigger image.

ooks like you maybe already sold one to make this Model T tractor go so slow! :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBcYQD505Ns
 
(quoted from post at 09:47:19 01/22/13)
(quoted from post at 19:12:10 01/21/13) I'll bet that if the TheOldHokie put his mind to it he could make us a set of gears to about half the speed of the 8N four speed reverse??????

Zane

Thanks for the vote of confidence Zane :oops: I have put my mind to it and have produced gearing for 5 prototype gearboxes. In keeping with the Zane Sherman tradition of "fun" product naming I dubbed it the HokiePokie :roll: The gears are made and all that remains is to find time to finish the gear carrier ant the modiications to the Ford PTO shifter and linkage mechanism. Then it's install and test the thing. The reduction ratio is 3.5:1 in all gears forward and reverse so the speed reduction is significant - e.g. roto-tilling speeds.

TOH

Click on the thumbs for a bigger image.

ooks like you maybe already sold one to make this Model T tractor go so slow! :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBcYQD505Ns
 
I agree the reverse in the 8N is fast. It seems much faster than on my Jubilee, but I compensate for it by just reducing my throttle when backing up on the 8N and that makes it much slower and safer. Works for me.
 
(quoted from post at 11:18:24 01/22/13) TOH,

How do you shift that thing? Looks interesting.

Cliff(VA0

Don't know for sure yet :oops: The reduction gear shifter is the sliding collar that is splined to the output shaft and it shifts the same way the PTO shifts.
  • [*:efb13e9ae8] When shfted forward it engages the transmission output shaft directly via a set of dog clutch teeth locking the gearbox output shaft to the transmission output shaft in a 1:1 drive. The planetary eduction gears are not engaged and simply spin free.[*:efb13e9ae8]When shifted rearward it disengages the dog clutch teeth from the output shaft and engages the external gear with the sun gears. That produces a 3.5:1 reduction on the transmission output speed.[/list:eek::efb13e9ae8] The OEM shift rail for the PTO has to be rolled to the side similar to the the NAA to get clearance for the gearbox and I've already munged the PTO housing shown in the pictures to do that. Building a modified linkage is one of the remaining efforts. Then a second linkage gets added, probably on the right side, for shifting the reduction gearbox. It's only been a bit over 3 years since I first embarked on this project so things are moving right along :roll:

    TOH

    PS> Any resemblance to the Howard planetary reduction gearbox used on the NAA and later tractors is pure coincidence.....
 
(quoted from post at 10:45:58 01/22/13)
(quoted from post at 09:47:19 01/22/13)
(quoted from post at 19:12:10 01/21/13) I'll bet that if the TheOldHokie put his mind to it he could make us a set of gears to about half the speed of the 8N four speed reverse??????

Zane

Thanks for the vote of confidence Zane :oops: I have put my mind to it and have produced gearing for 5 prototype gearboxes. In keeping with the Zane Sherman tradition of "fun" product naming I dubbed it the HokiePokie :roll: The gears are made and all that remains is to find time to finish the gear carrier ant the modiications to the Ford PTO shifter and linkage mechanism. Then it's install and test the thing. The reduction ratio is 3.5:1 in all gears forward and reverse so the speed reduction is significant - e.g. roto-tilling speeds.

TOH

Click on the thumbs for a bigger image.
ooks like you maybe already sold one to make this Model T tractor go so slow! :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBcYQD505Ns

Close but I'm shooting for a bit lower ground speed - something under 1 MPH @ 1500 engine RPM in first gear.

TOH
 
I knew you could do it!!!!!

Hope you get it into production before I die!

I've always wanted to use a tiller behind my 8Ns.

Zane
 

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