Starter ring gear problems

I had been having problems getting my 1949 8N starter to always engage. I noticed that it would jump or skip a beat when cranking like some teeth were maybe broken in the ring gear. I asked local dealer and he recommended a new bendix. I installed one and even though it turned over and started better it made the skipping spot now like a pounding, on the ring gear I think. SO much so that now the starter just spins and NO engagement or turn over of engine. I think I either am at a spot on the ring gear that truely has no teeth left or I've broken teeth on the bendix, or pin has come out and bendix is no operational. I have turned over engine by hand in an atttempt to get to a new spot on the ring gear and then tried to start again but always the same result, starter just spins.
I think I need to check out ring gear but that looks like a major project especially if it needs to be replaced. Any ideas?
If it needs a new ring gear is there any easy way to replece other then having to crack the engine from the frame?

Thanks
 
The engine generally stops in the same couple of places when it shuts down so one or two areas of the ring gear are usually worn much more than others.
Pull your starter out and look at the ring gear as you turn the engine over by hand. You should see those couple of bad/worn spots and determine if the ring gear is the problem.
If you see no bad spots it could also be caused by a loose ring gear that is spinning on the flywheel. Cheap and easy fix for that is with the starter out weld the ring gear to the flywheel with about 4 good tacks at 90, 180, 270 and 360 degrees.
You MUST follow a certain grounding procedure to do this so you don't wreck your main bearings in the engine. If you don't know how ASK!
Otherwise if the ring gear is bad in a few places the only way to fix it is to split the tractor - which really is not a hard job.
 
Break the tractor into and replace the ring gear.

bearing.

ZaneThe best and easiest way to do this is to attach a chain hoist to the steering wheel at it's center and put a rolling floor jack under the clutch housing. Remove the caps from the radius rods at the front of the running boards. Remove the bolts from the steering sector where it bolts to the clutch housing. Remove any wires to the rear of the tractor such as tail or work lights. Remove the battery and the bolts that are around the circumference of the clutch housing. Tie a rope around the hood and the oil pan to help support some of the weight. I only did this occasionally did this but it just might be less stressful on the other stuff that will be hanging from the steering wheel.
Raise the chain hoist and the battery box will come above the clutch housing and allow it to clear when the rear of the tractor is rolled back. This is a good time to also check to be sure all the bolts in the auxillary transmission are tight because they are famous for falling off the front of the transmission when they get some age on them.
I would also check the clutch condition by removing the pressure plate and inspect it closely for broken springs or loose rivets holding the facing on. Also check the pilot bearing or bushing in the flywheel for wear. Always replace the throw out bearing.

Zane
 
#1 pull the starter off first. Then #2 pull all the plugs out. #3 turn the engine over and watch the ring gear for broken out teeth and or teeth that have burrs which would cause that problem also. By doing it this way you know for sure if you have missing teeth before you go over board with things. If you do have missing teeth sorry but the only way to fix is to split the tractor
 
UD how does that tacking not unbalance the fw and then what do ya do if ya break teeth off the rg and ya have to remove the tacked in ring? I would think when you would have to grind into the fw that would be a no no. Just asken, not saying it wont work.
 
Part One)
I'm guessing that the weight of a 1/2" long tack is about a penny weight = 2.3 grams.
I'm also just guessing that the weight of an N flywheel is about 50 lbs.
50 lbs X 16 ounces to the pound X 28.3 grams to the ounce = 22,640 grams.
One tack is about 2.3 <font size="4.5" color="black">÷</font> 22,640 = .01%
I seriously doubt that when the flywheels were new they were within .01% in balance.
Secondly, I suggested four tacks around the circumference of the flywheel. Lets try to make them reasonably equidistant and let's say any decent welder can make each tack within 10% the same size and weight.
So now we are looking at 10% of .01% out of balance. If my arithmetic is right that is about .001% out of balance.
Do you really think that matters??
Do you think even Formula 1 race cars are so exact?
I don't.
Part Two)
Ever heard of a slitting wheel for a 4" angle grinder? They are about 1/16" thick and will cut through ferrous metal like a hot knife through butter
What is to prevent any decent welder from cutting those welds back off should the tractor need to be split for something else? And at that time installing a new ring gear (or new/used flywheel)?
Part Three)
If the ring gear has damaged teeth then the Only way it can be repaired is to split the tractor and install a new one.
If the ring gear is good but only slipping then a reliable and inexpensive way to repair it is to weld it.
Part Four)
See photo below.
About 6 years ago I bought a decent little 8N for $900 because the ring gear was bad. The guy I bought it from had paid a guy about $500 to split the tractor and put a new clutch in it because the ring gear was slipping.
The new ring gear also slipped so he threw in the towel and sold it.
I assumed the flywheel was bad - if two ring gears were slipping.
So I had my neighbor carefully hold the ground on the bolt on the front of the crankshaft and welded the ring gear to the flywheel through the starter hole in 4 approximately equidistant places.
The whole process - R&R the starter and welding took less than an hour.
Then I bolted the hood on properly and installed a used grill I had.
I put $25 worth of gas in it and bought my neighbor a case of beer.
Then I sold the tractor to a guy I know for $1500. A tidy profit.
I know that tractor is still running today because I see it/him when I go up to my land.
I am entirely confident my repair will last as long as the new clutch will.
Part Six)
You may fix your tractor as you see fit. I will fix tractors as I see fit and not fritter away my time on things that do not need it.
Jerry

HPIM0400.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 17:29:43 12/30/12) Part One)
I'm guessing that the weight of a 1/2" long tack is about a penny weight = 2.3 grams.
I'm also just guessing that the weight of an N flywheel is about 50 lbs.
50 lbs X 16 ounces to the pound X 28.3 grams to the ounce = 22,640 grams.
One tack is about 2.3 &lt;font size="4.5" color="black"&gt;÷&lt;/font&gt; 22,640 = .01%
I seriously doubt that when the flywheels were new they were within .01% in balance.
Secondly, I suggested four tacks around the circumference of the flywheel. Lets try to make them reasonably equidistant and let's say any decent welder can make each tack within 10% the same size and weight.
So now we are looking at 10% of .01% out of balance. If my arithmetic is right that is about .001% out of balance.
Do you really think that matters??
Do you think even Formula 1 race cars are so exact?
I don't.
Part Two)
Ever heard of a slitting wheel for a 4" angle grinder? They are about 1/16" thick and will cut through ferrous metal like a hot knife through butter
What is to prevent any decent welder from cutting those welds back off should the tractor need to be split for something else? And at that time installing a new ring gear (or new/used flywheel)?
Part Three)
If the ring gear has damaged teeth then the Only way it can be repaired is to split the tractor and install a new one.
If the ring gear is good but only slipping then a reliable and inexpensive way to repair it is to weld it.
Part Four)
See photo below.
About 6 years ago I bought a decent little 8N for $900 because the ring gear was bad. The guy I bought it from had paid a guy about $500 to split the tractor and put a new clutch in it because the ring gear was slipping.
The new ring gear also slipped so he threw in the towel and sold it.
I assumed the flywheel was bad - if two ring gears were slipping.
So I had my neighbor carefully hold the ground on the bolt on the front of the crankshaft and welded the ring gear to the flywheel through the starter hole in 4 approximately equidistant places.
The whole process - R&amp;R the starter and welding took less than an hour.
Then I bolted the hood on properly and installed a used grill I had.
I put $25 worth of gas in it and bought my neighbor a case of beer.
Then I sold the tractor to a guy I know for $1500. A tidy profit.
I know that tractor is still running today because I see it/him when I go up to my land.
I am entirely confident my repair will last as long as the new clutch will.
Part Six)
You may fix your tractor as you see fit. I will fix tractors as I see fit and not fritter away my time on things that do not need it.
Jerry

While I don't disagree with you the math/physics doesn't work that way. A typical automotive flywheel static imbalance specification would be roughly .5 ounce-inch maximum. That value represents the static torque caused by an uneven weight distribution across the crankshaft centerline which gets further magnified by dynamic forces when spinning at 2000 RPM.

Coincidentally (??) that imbalance on a 12" diameter flywheel works out to be .5/6=.08 ounce (2.3 grams) at the circumference. So it would be wise to keep the tacks very much the same size and evenly distributed.

TOH
 
Have done some investigating since first post. I removed the starter and in doing so noticed that one of the long bolts holding it on was very lose. So much so that I could move starter before trying to remove it, not good. When I looked into starter opening I saw some teeth half flattened and metal shavings. I rotated the engine by hand and saw other places like this on the ring gear. I then checked the bolt and the threads had stripped over but the threads in the cast housing are OK along with the other bolt and it's threads. I can only assume that the bendix gear had gotten cocked from all the torque from starting and was not truely lined up when trying to engage into the flywheel and caused the damage in the ring gear teeth. On removing the starter I now have a bendix that is engaged over it's drive gear, (unwound), and cannot see that gear to tell if it in fact is also bad. How can I wind that bendix back to reveal gear and put it back into it's normal state for reassembly?
Otherwise I am going to start to follow Zane's description and seperate my first N. This 8N has I beleive to be a step up trans with shift lever coming out the left side as from the drivers seat, below the battery. When seperating tractor what shafting, if any, is inside that needs to be disconected to get gear on, (I'm assuming the ring gear is a one piece gear)? Major operation for me but has to be done to replace ring gear. Is there any aligment required both in location and radially for the ring gear? Does it just bolt onto flywheel?
And for the bendix/starter I hope nothing is required to align it. As far as I know there's a pilot hole that the starter goes into and the two long bolts line up and it's mounted. Would there be any radial or other location alignment required for starter/bendix? May have to get new bendix but that is to be yet determined.

Thanks again for all your help!
 
Bergie.........replace yer tranny input shaft seal. ($3, cheap)

As fer yer starter Bendix, imitate yer engine. When engine starts, it goes FASTER than the starter motor so the Bendix un-winds and dis-engages from the flywheel ring. Just stick yer small starter Bendix gear into yer 6-in wire wheel grinder and letter un-wind the starter Bendix gear. You may haffta hold the starter east-west ...or... maybe west-east to gitt the proper anti-spin direction. Simple, eh? ........Dell
 
Bergie,

Look at the bendix end of that starter motor real carefully. There is a brass sleve bearing in the starter end plate. I have seen that bearing and end plate (aluminum) badly damaged from a starter and bendix that jumped on the worn teeth of the ring gear. If that plate is damaged, you probably need to buy a new starter motor, or else your newly installed ring gear will have a very short life. After market starter motors with new bendix installed can be had for about $125. If you buy one, check the long bolt length, as I have had them snug up against the backside of the flywheel, making the motor impossible to turn over. The bolt closest to the side of the engine block is the one that can make trouble. I have replaced a few ring gears also. When you replace the ring gear, you need to remove the entire flywheel from the crankshaft. Check out the condition of the clutch and pressure plate at the same time.

HTH,

Paul in MN
 

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