8N sleeve

Anonymous-0 · Nov 8, 2012

Have a 49N with worn out .040" wall sleeves.

Considering boring out the sleeves and installing new .09" wall sleeves,

As opposed to replacing with .04" sleeves.

Is this procedure recommended?

Padave83 · Nov 8, 2012

I would only bore out for the thicker wall sleeves if your sleeve bores in your block are worn oversize or damaged in some way. No adavantage to the thicker sleeves in my opinion. Purchase or make a good sleeve puller for removal and installation.

Anonymous-0 · Nov 8, 2012

Main consideration is cracking the block upon removal of the thin wall sleeve with a wacker.

kylemorley · Nov 8, 2012

Thin .040 sleeves were originally made of steel instead of cast iron like the .090 thick sleeves were. Since cast iron is generally considered a better material for bores this has often been cited as a disadvantage to the .040 sleeves.

However lately I notice lately several vendors list the thin sleeves as being "cast". Anyone know if this means they are now being made of iron, or is it just that the vendors don't know the difference?

Anonymous-0 · Nov 8, 2012

Checked with "Just 8N's" retail parts supplier.
The thin wall N sleeves are steel and from TISCO.

Bob Harvey · Nov 8, 2012

I've used a sleeve driver (wacker)for removal only once, no worries about hurting the block unless you are a crappy shot with the sBFH. Then anything can happen!

ZANE · Nov 8, 2012

Just replace the sleeves with the .040 sleeve. You end up with the same piston size anyway.

Don't even try to "bore" out the sleeves and don't even try to peel them out with anything. Get a sleeve driver set and drive them out and drive them back in.

I've had some recent success with liquid propane freezing and shrinking the new sleeves before installing them.

Of course you need to be extra careful not to be around any source of a spark or flame if you use the liquid porpane. Boom! If you're not careful!!!!
Never ever try it in a closed building of any kind. Out in the open air is the only way to do it!

The .040 sleeves you get now are cast iron just like the .090 sleeves and are not steel like the original sleeves.

I've personally not seen a steel .040 sleeve in about 45 years????

Zane

Anonymous-0 · Nov 8, 2012

That gives confidence in using the wacker technique.
Contacted the folks at Advanced Sleeve in Concord,Ohio.. the main concern of going from thin wall to thick wall sleeve is a cracking issue.

Maybe the thicker wall cast grey iron sleeve that went into the 50-52 engines had a modified block compared to earlier years to accomodate the thicker sleeve.

Where the 1950-1952 blocks different than the 1948-1949 blocks and when were the thick wall sleeves introduced?

Also, Advanced Sleeve indicated a press fit lubricate is required when installing the cast gray iron sleeve with a maximum .002" interference fit on a 3.368" OD thick wall sleeve.

Anonymous-0 · Nov 8, 2012

Just called "Just 8N's" parts, the .04" thin wall sleeves from TISCO are shiny steel not grey cast iron.
The part was actually pulled from the shelf to check the material.

TheOldHokie · Nov 8, 2012

(quoted from post at 18:33:58 11/08/12) That gives confidence in using the wacker technique.
Contacted the folks at Advanced Sleeve in Concord,Ohio.. the main concern of going from thin wall to thick wall sleeve is a cracking issue.

Maybe the thicker wall cast grey iron sleeve that went into the 50-52 engines had a modified block compared to earlier years to accomodate the thicker sleeve.

Where the 1950-1952 blocks different than the 1948-1949 blocks and when were the thick wall sleeves introduced?

Also, Advanced Sleeve indicated a press fit lubricate is required when installing the cast gray iron sleeve with a maximum .002" interference fit on a 3.368" OD thick wall sleeve.

Ford believed the thicker wall sleeves were an improvement over the thin wall sleeves. The block castings were not changed and the official Ford recommendation was to rebore older blocks and fit thick wall sleeves. For a decently equipped automtive machine shop there is zero problem boring out thinwall sleeeves and the block to fit thick wall sleeves. It's actually easier and less work than removing the old sleeves before reboring. That said it will wind up being more expensive than simply replacing the .040 sleeves yourself - probably $25 per hole or more.

TOH

Hobo,NC · Nov 8, 2012

Go 90's and don't look back... I kill all the 40's I build...

Zane, I have never seen a 40 iron sleeve and sold plenty of them...

Anonymous-0 · Nov 8, 2012

Thank you, TOH, for instilling confidence in going ahead with replacing thin wall steel with thick wall cast iron sleeves.

Just received the thick wall sleeves today from North Carolina.

Good to know that the block configuration did not change from 48 to 52 or maybe even as far back as 39 to 52.

There is a post on this forum in Jan 27,2003
stating,"cast iron offers a porous surface which
holds oil and steel does not."
Therefore cast iron offers better lubrication than steel and as a result less friction, less surface temperature, less heat generation
and more thermal efficiency.

Going to gray cast iron sleeves is defininely an upgrade over steel sleeves.

teddy52food · Nov 8, 2012

Back in the late 60's when I worked in a machine shop, we pulled the thin sleeves & cross - hatched the bores then installed .083 oversized pistons. When those wore out , the block was bored for the heavy sleeves.

Anonymous-0 · Nov 8, 2012

Oh, now I get it.

That's the missing link!!

TISCO has a part# P1003-0 ,4 ring piston,
that is .083" over size and coresponding rings part# PR1003-0.

Now, I know why the large over size pistons are still available and the application.

Thank you.

1951 8N · Nov 8, 2012

Where the 1950-1952 blocks different than the 1948-1949 blocks and when were the thick wall sleeves introduced?

The thick wall sleeves were introduced in 1951 at serial number 8N433578.

kylemorley · Nov 9, 2012

I'd be interested in hearing more about going linerless with oversize pistons. Is the bore in the block clean enough that just running a glazebreaker hone through it is going to clean it up enough to use? If machine shop prep was necessary it would probably not be cost effective, but otherwise it seems like it could be a useful kludge for an in-frame top end job on a .040 machine - you get a cheap overhaul with no need to take the block to a machine shop, with a miniscule amount of extra HP thrown in as a sweetener, and still have a rebuild path open (boring for .090s) should you wear out or damage the bore in the block itself.

kylemorley · Nov 9, 2012

And I just checked with TISCO directly and they tell me their .040" sleeves are steel!

Dennis Carpenter says theirs are stamped "steel".

Haven't heard from Ncomplete, but their catalog says the .040s are cast.

TheOldHokie · Nov 9, 2012

(quoted from post at 10:00:25 11/09/12) I'd be interested in hearing more about going linerless with oversize pistons. Is the bore in the block clean enough that just running a glazebreaker hone through it is going to clean it up enough to use? If machine shop prep was necessary it would probably not be cost effective, but otherwise it seems like it could be a useful kludge for an in-frame top end job on a .040 machine - you get a cheap overhaul with no need to take the block to a machine shop, with a miniscule amount of extra HP thrown in as a sweetener, and still have a rebuild path open (boring for .090s) should you wear out or damage the bore in the block itself.

You will spend as much or more for four .083 over pistons and rings as you would for a complete set of new stock sleeves, pistons, and rings. And the next time around you will [u:11e9c2ca5b][b:11e9c2ca5b]have[/b:11e9c2ca5b][/u:11e9c2ca5b] to rebore the block.

TOH

TOH

ZANE · Nov 9, 2012

That should be a good sleeve to install. I've not seen any steel .040 steel sleeves since I was a Ford tractor parts man in the early 60s.

They were a lot easier to remove.

My brother in law bought a new 8N in 1948 and we made 10 crops with it before it had to be rebuilt. I dismantled the engine to do the rebuild in our dealership and the sleeves were so worn there were gaps worn in them at the top of the ring stoping places on all four sleeves and it still didn't smoke or foul plugs. Did use a little oil. Those little tractors are the best thing Ford ever made.

Zane

Anonymous-0 · Nov 10, 2012

Cost Comparison

Pistons:

TISCO price for one .0825" over size 3 ring piston piston = $33
PN P1003-0

TISCO standard size 3 ring piston = $23
PN 8N6108 B

Rings:

TISCO price for .0825" over size rings, set of 4 = $38
PN PR1003-0

TISCO price for standard size rings, set of 4 = $23
PN 8N6149A5

If the arithmetic is correct, the extra parts cost = $55 - (4 x $28/sleeve) = -$57
cost less than re sleeving

Do not have the extra cost of sleeves and the extra labor cost and removal/installation tooling cost.

But, do have to stone hone or a least flex hone
the raw hole. If the hole gets scored from removing old sleeves, then have to opt out to sleeves.

Do not know if the block is cast steel or cast grey iron. The block material may not be the best for ring seating compared to grey cast iron.

Anonymous-0 · Nov 10, 2012

If you want grey cast iron sleeves and

If you do not want to bore out the block for .09" wall sleeves, can purchase custom cast iron sleeves made in the good old USA for about $100/sleeve at Advanced Sleeve in OHIO

Ken(Ark) · Nov 10, 2012

If you do not want to bore out the block for .09" wall sleeves, can purchase custom cast iron sleeves made in the good old USA for about $100/sleeve at Advanced Sleeve in OHIO

I did a quick look up from one of my suppliers :

Enginetech ,

esl175 cylinder sleeve
3/32 x 4.0 x 9.375
$15.54 each wholesale / $21.52 each retail

esl103 cylinder sleeve
3/32 x 3.9375 x 6.375
$9.99 each wholesale / $13.83 each retail

I can see why it was common to use automotive sleeves a few decades ago when labor was cheap .

P.S.

All blocks were cast iron . You won't know about the bore until the sleeves are out , sometimes an oversized O.D. sleeve is needed .

It is not a god idea to use an automotive sleeve if possible since the auto sleeve O.D.'s are usually larger than a stock .090 sleeve which could be replace over and over . Replacing auto sleeve may or may not be very stable .

TheOldHokie · Nov 10, 2012

(quoted from post at 12:22:35 11/10/12) Cost Comparison

Pistons:

TISCO price for one .0825" over size 3 ring piston piston = $33
PN P1003-0

TISCO standard size 3 ring piston = $23
PN 8N6108 B

Rings:

TISCO price for .0825" over size rings, set of 4 = $38
PN PR1003-0

TISCO price for standard size rings, set of 4 = $23
PN 8N6149A5

If the arithmetic is correct, the extra parts cost = $55 - (4 x $28/sleeve) = -$57
cost less than re sleeving

Do not have the extra cost of sleeves and the extra labor cost and removal/installation tooling cost.

But, do have to stone hone or a least flex hone
the raw hole. If the hole gets scored from removing old sleeves, then have to opt out to sleeves.

Do not know if the block is cast steel or cast grey iron. The block material may not be the best for ring seating compared to grey cast iron.

Your arithmetic is fine but you missed the fact you can buy a complete engine re-sleeve kit containing four sleeves and pistons with rings for $160.

TOH

Anonymous-0 · Nov 11, 2012

So, based on your standard size sleeve/piston/ring cost, $160,

the .0825" OS piston/ring setup,

only has a $5 cost savings in parts.

Therefore, do not know why TISCO even offers the .0825" OS option.

However, if the block is cast iron, then the bare block material is a better ring break in and wear surface than a 1010 steel sleeve.

8N sleeve

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