'52 8N Side Mount 6V No Spark

I'm on day 3 of trying to get spark going on my '52 8N with a side mount distrubutor. It is all stock 6V components. I've searched and read up on everything but nothing seems to work. Was hoping someone might have some ideas here.

I just got this 8N. I also have a 51 8N with a side mount, but that one is a 12 volt conversion, so I have dealt with points and the tractor in general, just not in a 6 Volt system. Thew new '52 was running "awhile ago". I put new gas in it, ran some carb cleaner through the carb, verified gas flows into the carb, put a new charged battery in it, crossed my fingers, and hit the started button. It turned over. Next thing I did was check for spark at the plugs. Nothing, but there were pretty crusty looking and the tips looked fouled. I changed the plugs to new plugs, gapped to .025, gave the points a quick polish and set the gap at .025 for those too, tried again, no spark.

Then I took a second look at the battery and realized I had it wired up negative ground (whoops), so I turned it around and hooked it back up positive ground. Tried again, no spark at the plugs.

Then I went and got a new tractor supply 6V coil, wired it in, figuring I might have cooked the coil. Still no spark at the plugs.

Then I went and got new points and condenser, installed them, gapped points at .025. No spark.

Then I grabbed my multimeter. Verified I have 6 volts going into the coil. When I check the voltage from the battery side of the coil to the points arm I also have 6 volts. So I know I got 6 volts into the distributor.

I rewired my old coil back in for giggles. No spark.

I put the new coil back on. No spark.

I prayed. No spark.

I turned the engine over with distributor cover off so I could see the points work. They are opening. I did the same with the ignition on and have no visible spark when the points open. I re-verified that the points arm is getting 6 volts. Shouldn't I see a sparking when the points are opening? I redid this in the dark of night to see if there was even a tiny spark at the points. Nothing.

I am keeping the battery charged up every night and in between trips to the parts store.

I don't know what to try next. Any suggestions (besides converting to 12 Volt)?

Stop buying parts and trouble shoot. First off pull the cap and rotor and dust cover. Turn on the ignition and make sure the point are closed. Open and close the points by hand, be careful or you will find the spark the hard way. You should both hear and see a spark at the points. Not spark there means you have a short between the coil and the points and to prove that pull the ignition side of the coil wire off turn the ignition on then touch and remove that wire making sure the points are open. If you have spark then you have a short in the distributor be it a wire or the insulator at the side of he distributor

wow.. I wish I sold parts.

with the amounts of parts you guys buy and repalce without finding out why things don't work, I could be rich by now.

if you have 6v on the distribuitor side of the coil.. that means points are open, or are not making contact when closed.

spark occurs when power to coil, points are grounded, and then open.. at moment of opening.. that's when spark happens.

if they never ground.. and open.. no spark.

recheck and postt back

Listen to old & soundguy: buy parts AFTER you troubleshoot.

Do you have battery voltage across the points when they are open? Verify the gap on the points at .025. Then, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. (I always spray my feeler guage blade off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts, along w/ the attached copper strip. It's hard to find a short there because it is usually an intermittent . So 'wiggle' the insulator & the copper strip a bit when you are doing your checking. If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all. If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Insure that the rotor fits firmly on the shaft & that the little clip is there. Make sure the distributor cap is not cracked & doesn't have carbon tracks. Check continuity on the secondary coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. In fact, replace it temporarily w/ a plug wire. Next, remove the secondary coil wire from the center of the distributor cap, turn the key on & crank the engine while holding the end of the wire 1/4" from a rust & paint free spot on the engine. You should see & hear a nice blue/white spark. If not, you have a bad coil or condenser. Just put the old condenser back in to eliminate that as a possibility.



Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was.
50 Tips

Listen to what these guys are telling you about shorts in the distributor. I had one that was hard to find, but there, and it wouldn't work to save me until I noticed and fixed it. Based on Bruce's advice I kept looking knowing that's where the problem was.

You know any more it seems people throw parts at the problem not know what it is then ask instead of asking and trouble shooting fist. You would think they would read more posts since it seems every day one of us tell people to check spark etc

first thing to check...

Thanks for the suggestions! I will look for a short on the distributor after work.

The insulator and bushing on the wire from the coil do look suspect now that I think of it.

I will report back after I look at it.

As far as parts buying and troubleshooting go, hours of troubleshooting were done before I replaced parts. I read old posts by soundguy, dell, and Bruce and did their troubleshooting methods. Plugs, points, and distributor cap all needed replacing anyway. The condeser and a new rotor came on the kit. This thing has sat for a while, at least a few winters outside. I probably didn't need the coil, but I was willing to fork over $22 to find out. I'm out $52 for parts, if I don't need them all now, well I have two 8Ns so I'm sure they will come in handy down the road

Bruce, you were correct about the common point of failure. Short in the distributor near the strip that connects the wire on the side. Insulator was disintegrating, I jury rigged a piece of cardboard behind it and ordered a new insulator and bushing. I now have nice spark on all four wires and 6 volts between the points when open.

Turned her over and (and over) and it will not fire. When I use starting fluid I get a single loud backfire (and an ear ache). Removed air intake tube, put my hand over it to manual choke, and it (predictably) flooded, so I know fuel is getting to the carb from the tank.

Someone mentioned timing may be way out, so I took off the distributor cap, tapped the starter until it was pointing at cylinder number one, looked in the "viewport" at the flywheel, and it was point at about 2 degrees, so I assume the timing is close enough for it to at least catch?

I think my next round of troubleshooting should be the carb? I know it is sucking air, and I know fuel is dumping in it. I sprayed it out initially and drained it, but other than that have not touched the needles.

Suggestions?

I will go dig out my shop manual and read up on the carb.

(quoted from post at 09:10:31 09/13/12) Listen to old & soundguy: buy parts AFTER you troubleshoot.

Do you have battery voltage across the points when they are open? Verify the gap on the points at .025. Then, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. (I always spray my feeler guage blade off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts, along w/ the attached copper strip. It's hard to find a short there because it is usually an intermittent . So 'wiggle' the insulator & the copper strip a bit when you are doing your checking. If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all. If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Insure that the rotor fits firmly on the shaft & that the little clip is there. Make sure the distributor cap is not cracked & doesn't have carbon tracks. Check continuity on the secondary coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. In fact, replace it temporarily w/ a plug wire. Next, remove the secondary coil wire from the center of the distributor cap, turn the key on & crank the engine while holding the end of the wire 1/4" from a rust & paint free spot on the engine. You should see & hear a nice blue/white spark. If not, you have a bad coil or condenser. Just put the old condenser back in to eliminate that as a possibility.



Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was.
50 Tips

Click to expand...

" Someone mentioned timing may be way out"

Huh?

How?

Somebody sneak in the garage, loosen the distributor & turn it?

That's not your problem.

First, put a charger on the battery. You need a strong battery to:

1. Close the solenoid

2. Spin the starter

3. Engage the bendix

4. Provide voltage to the coil.

As the battery gets weaker, the first thing to fail is your spark. If the battery is almost totally dead, all you will hear is the solenoid clicking.

The more current you use to spin the starter, the less you have for the ignition.


Next, while the battery is charging, replace the plugs. You flooded it, they're fouled & it will be it next to impossible to start. You don't need to toss them; heat the tips for a few seconds w/ a propane torch to burn off the invisible spark-robbing deposits from today's additive filled gasoline........or wash them in lacquer thinner.

While the plugs are out, put a tblspn or so of oil in each cylinder to help w/ compression. And lube the walls.

Once you clean/replace the plugs, start over: check for fuel & spark.

There are ways to check for spark & fuel that work & ways that don't. For example, having gas to the carb is nice, but having it past the float is what counts! That’s why removing the 7/16” bolt in the bottom of the carb is the way to check for fuel. As long as the fuel is turned on, you should see gas flowing out of the carb. Let it run for at least 30 seconds. If it’s a dribble, or runs for 5 seconds & stops, or none at all, you have solved half the problem: it’s fuel related. And, same thing w/ spark at the plugs. Some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap & 22kv to jump ¼” in the open air. Remember, it’s 14psi outside of the engine & about 90psi at a 6:1 compression ratio in the cylinders & compressed air creates electrical resistance, so you really need the 17-22kv to fire the plugs when the engine is running. To make that observation, take an old spark plug w/ the gap opened to at least 3/16” ( ¼” is better) ground it to a rust & paint free spot on the engine, turn the key on & crank the engine. If the spark jumps the 3/16” gap, you probably don’t have a spark problem. If it won’t jump the 3/16” gap, you have a spark problem. A store bought plug checker will work better than an old plug because it won’t shock the snot out of you like an old plug might!

Try starting it w/ starting fluid only (or propane) no choke!
50 Tips

Chris,
You're getting jumped on for being a parts changer and not doing a little investigating first. As well you should.
But don't worry, you are only the 22,037th guy who did the same thing here.
Pay attention to Soundguy, Dell, Hobo, Bruce, Jmor and others here.
They will not only help you fix it but help you understand how to check what part needs to be fixed.
At least you didn't rip the head off the poor tractor.
There have been 4,587 guys here who tore the head off of their tractor because it didn't have spark or fuel to the carb or even cause the tire was flat.
You are way ahead of the curve.

The tractor "Stopped running one day, someone futzed around with it trying to get it going again, no dice" was about all the information I had on this tractor. It sat for at least two winters. A neighbor hearing backfires surmised maybe they took the distributor off and put it on out of sync. Anyway, I double checked the timing, only took a minute, and I was able to rule it out.

Ok, Charger is on the battery.

I will remove and clean the plugs, oil the plug holes, and open the drain plug on the carb and verify gas flows out of it in a constant stream.

I will also rig up an old plug and open the gap and make sure I have "real" spark on it. (But I won't do this while gas is pouring out of the carb of course).

If all that looks good I will try it choke off and starting fluid.

It's dark out now and buggy, so I will try this tomorrow.

Thanks again !!!

Post back w/ results or more questions.

Yep.

At least this isn't a case of fixing it until it's broke!

Haha, yes, but I actually did quite a bit of investigating. The distributor short where the coil wire enters the housing did not come up in the first 10,000 hits on google though, otherwise I would have looked there more closely. As it was the short was hidden, the insulator looked OK around the edges, but had worn underneath where you could not see it. When I prodded at it it disintegrated. I don't see the $30 tune up kit as being outlandish. If paying an extra $22 bucks for a coil when one may not be needed gets you labled a parts changer here, then so be it. It's worth the price of admission for the advice you get here

I've been lurking here for a couple years so I know the routine, I was able to fix all the issues on my other 8N just by reading posts and searching. The distributor issue had me stumped though. And now the starting issue. I don't know when the last time this thing ran or if it ran well then. The outside looks sound enough. In any case, it has better tires than my '51 8N and a sherman combo transmission, plus a boatload of other goodies (plow, back blade, dearborn loader, tire chains, box of extra parts) all for less than the price of an ebay Sherman combo. I'd like to see this '52 run, but if it doesn't I'm still way ahead of the game.

since it's an unknown what the previous people have done
and it's backfiring, check the static timing again.
remember there are two sets of timing marks on the flywheel of a 8N.

First thing this morning I turned the fuel wide open and removed the drain plug at the bottom of the carb. I get a dribble. It is a decent dribble but I would not classify it as a flow. It is more like very fast dripping.

There is a new screen at the valve under the tank, and the sediment bowl fills with gas very quickly. That is, it flows out of the tank and through the valve as what I would classify as a flow (when the bowl is empty obviously).

If it should be flowing out of the carb as fast as it fills the sediment bowl when empty, well it does not do that.

I'm assuming fuel problem right now (at least)? Should I buy a new carb? Haha just kidding!

I believe there is supposed to be a screen at the elbow where the fuel line enters the carb and will look for blockage there. Any other ideas?

I did not get a chance to replace the plugs and check the spark magnitude yet.

It can only flow out of the bottom drain as fast as it can get through the needle & seat orfice. It won't be as fast as it comes into the sediment bowl.

(quoted from post at 11:03:52 09/14/12) It can only flow out of the bottom drain as fast as it can get through the needle & seat orfice. It won't be as fast as it comes into the sediment bowl.

Click to expand...

...and through the carb elbow & screen. At this point I would remove the carb elbow, reattach the fuel line from the sediment bowl to the carb elbow and see how fast the flow is through the carb elbow. That is a $4.95 part from this site. An easy fix and simple test. If it is fine from there, then check the carb and potentially do a good/full cleaning of the carb. Reassemble and verify a good fuel flow from the bottom 7/16" drain plug. teddy52food's test would be a good check for the next step.

Hope this helps.

Jimps in GA.

(quoted from post at 06:53:25 09/14/12) since it's an unknown what the previous people have done
and it's backfiring, check the static timing again.
remember there are two sets of timing marks on the flywheel of a 8N.

Click to expand...

Dumb question, but is cylinder #1 at compression for both sets of timing marks, or only one of them?

That is, could it be 180 degrees out of time even if the rotor is pointing to #1 cylinder and I see it 2 degrees on the flywheel.

I did not check if cylinder #1was at compression when I looked at the timing marks.

Granted, I still have a fuel problem...

Chris.......surprizingly enuff, while the flywheel has 2-sets of timing marks, (180* apart) only 1-set of timing marks will show compression with yer #1-sparkie out. That's the one you want to have at TDC for timing yer dizzy. Remember, yer engine is a 4-stroke engine, that means the crankshaft will go uppsie'n'downsie 2-times fer every time the camshaft goes around. Remember, yer camshaft makes the dizzy go around to the 4-nipples. ........respectfully, Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

(quoted from post at 11:46:20 09/14/12)

(quoted from post at 06:53:25 09/14/12) since it's an unknown what the previous people have done
and it's backfiring, check the static timing again.
remember there are two sets of timing marks on the flywheel of a 8N.

Click to expand...

Dumb question, but is cylinder #1 at compression for both sets of timing marks, or only one of them?

That is, could it be 180 degrees out of time even if the rotor is pointing to #1 cylinder and I see it 2 degrees on the flywheel.

I did not check if cylinder #1was at compression when I looked at the timing marks.

Granted, I still have a fuel problem...

Click to expand...

ell answered your question, but I have another for you. Your statement contained, "..even if the rotor is pointing to #1 cylinder ..." By "pointing to cylinder #1", do you mean physically/geographically? Or do you mean that rotor is pointing to the distributor cap tower which has a wire connected to the spark plug nearest to the radiator? Communication is always suspect on the net.

I meant pointing at the distributor cap tower/point that goes to number 1 cylinder (the cylinder next to the radiator). That is, when the rotor is engaging the spark plug on number one.

Good news! It lives! Thanks for all the guidance!

Two issues I had to overcome:

#1 - filter at carb elbow was blocked. removed the screen for now. Now the fuel runs (and runs and runs)... right through the carb. Float must be stuck open? At any rate, I cracked the fuel tank valve open a hair and turned it over. Still backfiring... which brings us to....

#2 - It was out of time. Removed #1 spark plug, felt for compression as I tapped the starter button, then found the timing marks. It was not pointing at #1. It was point at the next one clockwise. So it was registering on the wrong set of timing marks. I removed the distributor, resinserted so it was pointed at #1 cylinder.

And it lives. Definitely crazy carb issues since it will only run if I crack the fuel valve open. But I got it going enough to run the tractor around a field a bit. Engine sounds like it is decent shape. But if cannot open the fuel valve at the tank any more than a quarter turn (or less) or it floods out.

Next question... what causes the fuel to run right through the carb like that? Needle stuck open? Poor carb adjustments? I adjusted the idle screw (middle of carb facing out with a spring on it) all the way in. Fuel still flows right out of the carb.

I did not want to touch the mixture needle until I talked to you guys.

The throttle linkage looks like it is working correctly (looks like the same range of motion as that on my nice-running '51). So I don't think the linkage is mussed up. I think something is stuck open inside the carb that just lets fuel dump in.

Suggestions? And thanks again!