Author	[Modern View]
8NDonJ 05-29-2012 18:26:00 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	I have a new 6V battery - but only get a fewgood starts before the battery is too dead to turn it over. I polarized the genny. When I turn on the ignition key, no amps register on the ammeter. If I turn on the lights, it draws a negative 6-10 amps. When the engine starts, the ammeter bounces wildly, but it's reading positive amps, bounding wildly between 5 & 10 amps. I need some suggestions on what to test next. Is my voltage regulator gone? Thanks in advance. [Reply]   [No Email]
NoNewParts 06-04-2012 05:36:56 67.240.145.25 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to JMOR, 05-29-2012 18:26:00   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see agree 100% Hobo all my tractors have voltmeters and my hand held one is an important tool. For the poster, some basics: http://www.engine-light-help.com/voltage-drop.html [Reply]  [No Email]
Hobo,NC 06-04-2012 04:48:20 75.89.251.222 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to JMOR, 05-29-2012 18:26:00   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see I would be interested in voltmeter readings also under all circumstances especially while crank'n!!!... The first diagnostic tool that should have been used was a Voltmeter a Amp meter is the last thing I would go by... He also has a crank'n issue a pizz poor dash mounted amp meter tells me nuttin about that side of the electrical system especially the battery... [Reply]  [No Email]
NoNewParts 06-04-2012 03:47:24 67.240.145.25 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to rbhb2, 05-29-2012 18:26:00   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see All the answers are in this thread, keep after it after you answer JMOR's question .. if you are just hooking your voltmeter to the battery, when the tractor is running and getting the 7.x volts... move on, no problem here on your separate starting problem, as Hobo said, battery must be good, new or old and as SG has asked a few times, you need to check for a draw when the tractor is off. and remember, those big battery cables are part of the battery, they are just outside the case :) clean and tighten all, whether they need it or not. clean between the starter and tractor too. last resort, test your starter for too high an amp draw. even with no charging system at all, a good battery should start a good running tractor for weeks. (OT, I have one Farmall with a magneto and no charging system, that I haven't put a charger on in months, which reminds me.... starts fine) [Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR 06-03-2012 20:32:40 72.190.9.193 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to teddy52food, 05-29-2012 18:26:00   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeGenerator alone or with it connected to VR & battery? [Reply]  [No Email]
Hobo,NC 06-02-2012 05:42:15 75.89.251.222 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to HCooke, 05-29-2012 18:26:00   Yer flow chart left out the most important part... A bad battery at times will mislead, give strange readings... Until you confirm the battery is good (new does not confirm that) all other test are useless... Goes dead after a few cranks throws up a flag.... A new fully charged bat should crank it 100 times.... [Reply]  [No Email]
Bruce (VA) 06-02-2012 15:19:40 24.125.80.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to Hobo,NC, 06-02-2012 05:42:15   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Tnx Hobo. Excellent point. [Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR 06-01-2012 06:33:18 72.190.9.193 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to KKRRSS, 05-29-2012 18:26:00   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeWild ammeter needle: the needle on my Farmall has done this ever since I had it ( 27 years) and all is well. Why does it do it? To my way of thinking, it is either a too sensitive VR that had inadequate hysteresis such that it is constantly turning field on/off/on OR the current sensing portion of the regulator senses generator overload & cuts back & then the overload is of course gone & then it turns back on & the cycle repeats itself. If it is the latter, and I believe it is in my Farmall) then you can steady the ammeter by slowing the engine to keep a very slightly positive ammeter reading, i.e., low charging current & no over current. I have, in my infinite curiosity, installed two jumpers, generator field to ground AND generator armature to battery with engine running and ammeter needle settles. This tells me that the ammeter wiggle is related to the unstable field control of the VR or the on/off current control function of the VR or both, since with these jumpers the regulator is out of the circuit & is set to maximum output. I satisfied my curiosity & removed the jumpers and it continues to flail about wildly & continues to keep the battery charged just as it always has done. Further, if you run the tractor all day, by the end of the day the battery should be charged enough to prevent over current & steady the meter or the VR is set so high the the battery will be boiling electrolyte. [Reply]  [No Email]
Royse 05-31-2012 19:19:04 69.36.49.151 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to JMOR, 05-29-2012 18:26:00   Don I believe the flow chart meant to clean the ground connection if it then showed a charge when you weren't showing one before. The ammeter "bounding wildly" has kind of confused me from the start. I suppose it could point to a VR, although I haven't seen one fail that way personally. It could also point to dirty/loose connections which are a common problem. If it seems to start now and work Ok since you've been poking/prodding/testing my money would be on those connections. [Reply]  [No Email]
GB in MT. 05-31-2012 04:01:38 216.47.51.70 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to Bob Harvey, 05-29-2012 18:26:00   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see I'm with soundguy, on this!!! Sounds to me like you are running your lighting too long, and your genny...(Only 20amps MAX output) , cannot keep up with the amps draw of the lighting, AND charge the bat. at the same time!!! Keep that up, and guess what....yer genny is gonna go belly up. MY thought is....If you are going to be using your lighting system, for working the 8N....cut down on the length of time running the lights,...cut down on how many lights you run......... OR convert to a 12vlt system, and then the alt may be able to keep the battery charged!! Next time ya run yer lighting system,.....after about 30min's run time....feel your genny...(Use the back of one finger tho, cause I would bet yer gonna burn your hand.!!!!} Don't ask how I found this out.!!!!!!! GB :) [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDon J 05-31-2012 17:58:41 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to GB in MT., 05-31-2012 04:01:38   See my most recent post...the lights have not been turned on at all. [Reply]  [No Email]
Bruce (VA) 05-29-2012 18:40:03 24.125.80.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to 8NDonJ, 05-29-2012 18:26:00   Make sure the battery is fully charged. They do not come from the store w/ a full charge. Then, check each cell w/ a hydrometer. (tip # 49) Once you are sure the battery is good, move on to checking the charging system. follow the flow chart. 50 Tips [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDonJ 05-31-2012 17:56:59 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to Bruce (VA), 05-29-2012 18:40:03   Following your flow chart, I grounded the battery post to the ground screw on the VR...it still shows charge (which it was doing BEFORE I ran the jumper ground wire). Your chart would say 'clean up the ground. This doesn't seem to make sense because the ammeter was showing charge (see original post) before I ran the jumper, so cleaning up the ground will make no change. So I think the genny is fine. Any other suggestions on checking the VR? The last few times I've been able to start the 8N with no problems..so maybe I have no problem at all, but would like to eliminate the VR. I also have not had the lights on at all, so I don't think the lights are running down the battery. [Reply]  [No Email]
Bruce(VA) 05-31-2012 18:53:55 24.125.80.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to 8NDonJ, 05-31-2012 17:56:59   If the ammeter did not show a charge until you ran a special ground wire, the ground was a problem. 50 Tips [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDon J 06-01-2012 03:01:35 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to Bruce(VA), 05-31-2012 18:53:55   The ammeter did show charge without a special ground wire (5-10 amps with considerable bouncing of the ammeter needle per my original post). [Reply]  [No Email]
Bruce (VA) 06-01-2012 06:05:38 24.125.80.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to 8NDon J, 06-01-2012 03:01:35   I'm not making myself clear. If the meter did not show a charge and then you ran a wire from the battery post to the ground post on the v/r and then it showed a charge, you have a ground problem. You do not have a ground problem. Clear now? The bouncing on the ammeter could be sticky points in the v/r or a bad ammeter. After you complete the tests on the flowchart, get an analog multi-meter & check your generator output. Your battery must be fully charged to get an accurate reading on the hydrometer. Put a charger on it first. [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDonJ 05-30-2012 02:53:35 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to Bruce (VA), 05-29-2012 18:40:03   Thanks. I'll try this in a couple of days...will reply with results. [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 05-30-2012 06:06:50 184.233.227.126 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to 8NDonJ, 05-30-2012 02:53:35   so far it sound slike it is charging. first.. how old is the battery? is it a 6v bat or 8v bat? [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDonJ 05-31-2012 18:00:48 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to soundguy, 05-30-2012 06:06:50   Yes - I think the genny is charging between 5-10 amps...the only problem is that the battery doesn't stay charged. But the battery is new and all cells check OK with a hygrometer. [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 05-31-2012 18:07:33 173.104.182.64 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to 8NDonJ, 05-31-2012 18:00:48   what's ammeter show at shutdown? 0 or discharge? [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDon J 06-01-2012 02:59:47 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to soundguy, 05-31-2012 18:07:33   0 with ignition off. [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 06-01-2012 11:31:12 184.4.148.75 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to 8NDon J, 06-01-2012 02:59:47   try pulling bat cable after turn off and see if bat still dies. if so.. it's battery. if not, put test lamp inline with bat cable.. should light up if there is a draw.. [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDonJ 06-02-2012 13:11:07 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to soundguy, 06-01-2012 11:31:12   I put a 6V test lamp between BAT terminal of the VR and ground of the VR. It lights up whether the ignition switch is on or not. I was thinking it would not light up with the switch off, but it did. [Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy 06-02-2012 15:16:05 173.105.216.44 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to 8NDonJ, 06-02-2012 13:11:07   you apparrently have no understanding of the wireing system in your tractor. ground is common. bat tab of vr goes right to...... the battery, after a trip thru the ammeter. bat tab on VR is ALWAYS hot if a battery is hooked up. you did NOT do the test I told you. I told you to lift the hot cable and put the test lamp between the cable and bat, with key off and lamps off. if tester lights up.. you have a draw somewhere in the system, either due to a short or incorrect wireing. as bruce said.. the vreg has NOTHING to do directly with the ignition system. you can wire cutter it out of the tractor and toss it inthe field and start the tractor and drive away till the battery dies. soundguy [Reply]  [No Email]
Bruce (VA) 06-02-2012 14:00:30 24.125.80.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to 8NDonJ, 06-02-2012 13:11:07   Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see Don't you have a wiring diagram for the tractor? The v/r is not in the ignition circuit. [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDonJ 06-02-2012 16:33:27 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to Bruce (VA), 06-02-2012 14:00:30   No - I don't have a wiring diagram. [Reply]  [No Email]
Bruce (VA) 06-02-2012 16:42:11 24.125.80.178 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to 8NDonJ, 06-02-2012 16:33:27   Check out tip 39. you really need a set of manuals. Meanwhile, do an archives search for 'wiring diagram'. Find the one by JMOR that fits your tractor (depends if it has a front or side distributor) 50 Tips [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDonJ 06-03-2012 18:37:40 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to Bruce (VA), 06-02-2012 16:42:11   Got the wiring diagrams...thanks. I checked generator output this afternoon...nice steady, 7.5 volts. [Reply]  [No Email]
8NDonJ 05-31-2012 02:47:52 70.239.12.31 Report to Moderator	Re: 8N Charing System in reply to soundguy, 05-30-2012 06:06:50   Brand new battery, 6V. [Reply]  [No Email]