.090 sleeve question

so i am replacing the sleeves in my 52 8n and i used the toh sleeve tool and the 1st one i put in the top ring cracked off on the last hit i gave it going flush to the block, i cleaned the notched surface and it seems fine, all 3 other sleeves went in fine, but they arent flush with the block, should i give them another tap to go flush or not? there isnt much of a lip but there is one and it is more on opposite side of the valves, just a bit curious if i did something wrong.

i dont know if this is the right way to do it but i like to put the head on with out gasket and tork it down starting in the middle and working out (head bolts) but you gotta replace that broking sleeve napa will sell you just one sleeve

i drove the broken one out and am going to order one tommorow. will try what you said when i get the 4th sleeve in.

(quoted from post at 13:35:41 10/03/10) so i am replacing the sleeves in my 52 8n and i used the toh sleeve tool and the 1st one i put in the top ring cracked off on the last hit i gave it going flush to the block, i cleaned the notched surface and it seems fine, all 3 other sleeves went in fine, but they arent flush with the block, should i give them another tap to go flush or not? there isnt much of a lip but there is one and it is more on opposite side of the valves, just a bit curious if i did something wrong.

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Not sure what to tell you. I suspect you had a high spot in the counterbore (dirt.carbon.etc) that caused the lip to braeak off. You will hear a very distinct change in the "ping" when the sleeve bottoms against the counterbore in the block. Stop there. The sleeve may not be flush - book wants the sleeve to stand .001 proud of the deck and some may be more depending on the machinist.

TOH

i heard the ping on that sleeve and thats when it broke i will check the blocks lip with the new sleeve, i didnt hear the ping on any of the other sleeves as i took it easy when i got to the end should i go back and hit it till i hear the ping?

(quoted from post at 19:30:46 10/03/10) i heard the ping on that sleeve and thats when it broke i will check the blocks lip with the new sleeve, i didnt hear the ping on any of the other sleeves as i took it easy when i got to the end should i go back and hit it till i hear the ping?

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Maybe a light tap. If there is a high spot the lip will crack. And it will also crack when you bolt the head down whether you "tap" it or not. The counterbore must be clean, level, and free of burrs and/or dirt. Any high spot will break the lip on the sleeve. If it is clean and level tapping it will not break the lip.

TOH

You can check the relief at the top of the sleeve by setting the new sleeve in the bore upside down into the relief. It should go down deeper than the deck of the block level. If it doesn't either it was bored wrong or the sleeve is made wrong. The relief at the top of the bore is not an interference fit. It should fit loosely but snug.

I've bored many Ford tractor engines for sleeves and the relief is always bored a few thousands deeper than the top ridge of the sleeve and wider that the ridge by a few thousands.

Zane

I've bored many Ford tractor engines for sleeves and the relief is always bored a few thousands deeper than the top ridge of the sleeve

Zane

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So you are saying that the sleeve should be a few thousandths below the deck height ???

Wouldn't that allow the sleeve to move up and down a few thousandths ???

Sleeve height questions come up a lot and there's a lot of confusion, so I'll add my 2 cents. The original design for the sleeve fit in the block called for the depth of the counterbore to be 1-2 thousandths less than the thickness of the lip on the sleeve. This would allow the lip on the sleeve to be just slightly higher that the deck when it was installed and fully seated. With manufacturing tolerances and aftermarket sleeves in the mix, you most often end up with some sleeves a little high, some a little low, and some flush with the deck. Don't worry about it. The critical part is that the sleeve lip is fully seated into the counterbore. The desired 1-2 thousandths high when seated causes confusion and some people stop driving them in before they are seated in an attempt to acheive that. Big mistake. If the thin sleeve lip is not seated firmly in the counterbore it cannot get proper heat transfer. The combustion temperatures will have that raised lip glowing red hot when the engine is running and it will start burning away. If you open many N engines you'll find a lot with half the sleeve lip missing. When enough of it burns away, you have a real risk of dropping a sleeve into the pan (more often on steel sleeves than cast). The steel fire ring on the head gasket helps hold the sleeve in place. Here's a crude drawing of a sleeve/block/gasket cross section.




This picture shows how the steel fire ring on the head gasket fits about 2/3 around the sleeve lip to keep it retained in the counterbore.





When the head is installed and torqued the fire ring will compress down into the counterbore if the sleeve is a little low, or flatten upwards if it's a little high. The bottom line is to be sure the sleeve lip is always fully seated. Where it ends up when seated is not a problem unless it is more than a couple thousandths high.

As for your broken sleeve lip when installing, I'm betting you are using the same driver you used for removing the sleeves to install them. To do that you need to be very careful and know just when to stop driving (usually by sound). With the old steel sleeves one driver (removal size) can usually do it all without problems. The OD of the driver is actually just slightly less than the sleeve bore. The steel sleeve is tough and the top lip will usually withstand whacking it into the counterbore. But with the cast sleeves, that thin top lip is much more brittle. Using a removal driver to seat those sleeves can result in the lip shearing off and sleeve going right on down. Hammering in a cast sleeve should be done with a driver that has the OD equal to the OD of the counterbore. That way, when the lip seats into the counterbore you can whack it as hard as you want and it will not go any further or shear the lip off. That means one driver sized for removal and one sized just for installation. Since one of your sleeves broke, I would inspect the other 3 very closely to see if they have have cracked horizontally just below the lip. If you were using a larger diameter driver and not the removal driver for the installation, then disregard everything I just said.....

I was using the larger driver for installing thats why i thought that once the driver was flush the sleeve was all the way in, will give another look tomm, i did notice that the indentation in the block was not as deep feeling as the others.

The Ford Nuday tool that dealers used when I worked at the Ford dealership was at least 5/16 inch wider than the lip of the sleeve and had a protrusion into the sleeve that kept it centered in the sleeve. It was not a tight fit but could move around. The large overlap assured that the lip of the sleeve was always fully covered by the driver.

I made a driver many years ago from an auto axle cut off about a foot long with the flange still attached that holds the lugs and the lugs removed. Never broke a sleeve installing them with it either. With that overhang you can't drive the sleeve down past the deck of the block unless you really gave it a hard lick when nearly down.

Zane

(quoted from post at 04:29:40 10/04/10) I was using the larger driver for installing thats why i thought that once the driver was flush the sleeve was all the way in, will give another look tomm, i did notice that the indentation in the block was not as deep feeling as the others.

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Lately I send the sleeves and pistons along with the block and other parts that need attention to the local machine shop,,, I let him install the sleeves ,,, check the fit of the pistons and correct it if needed and deck the block...

Its a 60 mile round trip and X 2 if I have a problem that needs take 'n care of so its money well spent to have a pro with the right equipment do his thang two...

Your next step is to check piston clearance and the ring gap,,, good luck cuzz sleeves are get'n as junky as the other foreign chit... That's good for a back yard bob's but not for folks that want their spec's dead nutz on...

(quoted from post at 21:03:05 10/04/10) The Ford Nuday tool that dealers used when I worked at the Ford dealership was at least 5/16 inch wider than the lip of the sleeve and had a protrusion into the sleeve that kept it centered in the sleeve. It was not a tight fit but could move around. The large overlap assured that the lip of the sleeve was always fully covered by the driver.

I made a driver many years ago from an auto axle cut off about a foot long with the flange still attached that holds the lugs and the lugs removed. Never broke a sleeve installing them with it either. With that overhang you can't drive the sleeve down past the deck of the block unless you really gave it a hard lick when nearly down.

Zane

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His installation driver is made from 3.5" round bar stock. It has a 3.184/3.186 x .750 pilot and the OD of the .250 thick flange is ~3.450 - just a light skim cut off the bar to clean up the finish and insure concentricity with the pilot. The Ford OEM style tool I also make is the same except the pilot is 6.5" long and extends the full length of the sleeve. It weighs ~15# and you use it like a slide hammer - just lift it an inch or so up out of the sleeve and drop it back down. Sound like your Ford/Nuday tools?

TOH