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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

How does a governor actually work....?

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Jeff (WI)

01-18-2010 07:05:16
71.98.4.6



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Just got done taking apart the governor on my '51 8N, flattening the housing, and hopefully eliminating the oil leak.

Got me thinking, how do the guts of the governor actually keep the RPM's steady? Anybody know how to explain what's actually happening inside the governor when the amount of power needed goes up or down?




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Dunk

01-18-2010 19:19:46
71.86.103.130



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to OhioDan, 01-18-2010 07:05:16  

Bob said: (quoted from post at 17:43:37 01/18/10) I'm sure that's POSSIBLE, there's 'most always exceptions to how things work.

HOWEVER, in the heyday of steam engines, typically the governor and it's steam valve were one unit. Governor weights OUT, steam valve closed.

<img src = "http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Centrifugal_governor_and_balanced_steam_valve_%28New_Catechism_of_the_Steam_Engine%2C_1904%29.jpg">

Here's ONE example... as you can see, the pressure-balanced steam valve is forced closed as the weights move up/outward, throttling the steam flow.


Well, Bob....

What seems to be missing from all of your posts, and all of the Googling that I have had time to do, to find an example, is the fact that there was a "throttle".

Just as on an N tractor.

There was also a way to totally disengage the governor.

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Jeff (WI)

01-18-2010 18:57:32
71.98.4.6



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Jeff (WI), 01-18-2010 07:05:16  
Thanks for the replies, everyone!



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Pip

01-18-2010 17:05:30
76.118.212.22



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Jeff (WI), 01-18-2010 07:05:16  
You must have spun some marbles in a dish as a kid right? Your hand held the dish in place and the marbles climbed up the wall of the dish. Well now as the balls in the governor spin the dish is what moves. The balls travel in a fixed plane and the dish presses against a fork that rotates a lever that acts against the tension of the spring connecting from the throttle lever to the governor lever. I adjusted the linkage on my "new" 8N today. I could see that the nuts weren't locked against the ball joints so I knew someone had messed with it. First I shortened the throttle rod length so there was no slack in the spring at idle. Then I pinned the throttle lever and I could see the engine rpm were too high on the proofmeter (too high to my ear too). There wasn't enough adjustment in the 1" hex bolt that was in the lever's stop so I replaced it with a 1.5" bolt. Now I was able to drop the max rpm down to 2200. There's a lot of play in the throttle plate shaft of the carb so I haven't been able to get the idle down to much below 550-600. After I do a carb rebuild I'll put a photo tach on the engine and check the max rpm again. Take yours for a ride in 3rd at a lower rpm and stand on the brakes a bit. You should be able to see the governor react under load.

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Dunk

01-18-2010 12:58:43
65.208.126.14



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to andy45cal, 01-18-2010 07:05:16  

JMOR said: (quoted from post at 16:52:51 01/18/10)
Bob said: (quoted from post at 16:22:38 01/18/10) "this is a my"

OBVIOUSLY should read "this is a myth".


Hey, as long as we are on stories, I like this one.

We know that in order for current to flow, there has to be a complete circuit (a loop), i.e. the generator at the power plant sends current thru a wire out to your house, thru the light bulb and back thru another wire to the power plant generator.

Thomas Edison, the inventor from New Jersey, came up with the phonograph in 1877, but it just set until the record was invented.

He came up with other gadgets like light bulbs, vacuum tubes & such until 1879, when he invented the electric company. His direct current design was brilliant (later proved to be not-so-brilliant as Tesla/Westinghouse Alternating Current, but none the less still brilliant). The electric company sends electricity thru a wire to a customer, then at the speed of light gets the same electricity back, thru another wire, then (and this is the REALLY brilliant part) sends it right back to the customer again! This means that the electric company can sell the customer the same batch of electricity thousands of times a day and never get caught, since very few customers take the time to examine their electricity closely. In fact, the last year in which any NEW electricity was generated in the United States of America was 1937. The electric companies have merely been re-selling it ever since, which is why they have so much free time to apply for rate increases.

Plagiarized from Dave Barry


Then it seems to have propagated it's self quite by a few billion megawatts since then, spontaneously.

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yeow

01-18-2010 13:51:45
68.221.143.202



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Dunk, 01-18-2010 12:58:43  
Well obviously I need to start sellin it back to them.



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JMOR

01-18-2010 12:52:51
72.181.166.239



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to soundguy, 01-18-2010 07:05:16  

Bob said: (quoted from post at 16:22:38 01/18/10) "this is a my"

OBVIOUSLY should read "this is a myth".


Hey, as long as we are on stories, I like this one.

We know that in order for current to flow, there has to be a complete circuit (a loop), i.e. the generator at the power plant sends current thru a wire out to your house, thru the light bulb and back thru another wire to the power plant generator.

Thomas Edison, the inventor from New Jersey, came up with the phonograph in 1877, but it just set until the record was invented.

He came up with other gadgets like light bulbs, vacuum tubes & such until 1879, when he invented the electric company. His direct current design was brilliant (later proved to be not-so-brilliant as Tesla/Westinghouse Alternating Current, but none the less still brilliant). The electric company sends electricity thru a wire to a customer, then at the speed of light gets the same electricity back, thru another wire, then (and this is the REALLY brilliant part) sends it right back to the customer again! This means that the electric company can sell the customer the same batch of electricity thousands of times a day and never get caught, since very few customers take the time to examine their electricity closely. In fact, the last year in which any NEW electricity was generated in the United States of America was 1937. The electric companies have merely been re-selling it ever since, which is why they have so much free time to apply for rate increases.

Plagiarized from Dave Barry

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Dean

01-18-2010 13:11:40
67.172.13.37



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to JMOR, 01-18-2010 12:52:51  
I want a refund.

Dean



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Bruce (VA)

01-18-2010 12:59:52
24.125.26.10



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to JMOR, 01-18-2010 12:52:51  
" In fact, the last year in which any NEW electricity was generated in the United States of America was 1937."

Well, no, that's not exactly correct. Don't forget hydro power. When they run the water through those dams, it sucks all of the electricity out of it. That's why you only see one hydro-electric plant per river. After the water runs through one dam, all the electricity is gone.



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Dunk

01-18-2010 12:52:32
65.208.126.14



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Bruce (VA), 01-18-2010 07:05:16  

Bob said: (quoted from post at 12:54:27 01/18/10) That sounds like a good story, but I have a hard time believing it's factual.

As the governor weights fly outward (indicating SPEED) the movement of the weights/governor mechanism would act to close the throttling valve, restrict steam flow (throttle back the engine).

The only way there can be full steam flow is if the weights remain in their inward position, at which point the governor will allow full steam flow.

As good as it may sound to those who don't know how a flyball governor works, I SUSPECT this is a my, much like the brass monkey/cannonball thing.


Well, Bob....

4. balls to the wall

To go at full (unregulated) power
Steam engines had mechanical regulators that consisted of a pair of hinged lever arms with a ball on the end of each arm, as the engine sped up the centrifugal force caused the arms to raise up closing a valve. If you adjust the regulator so that the arms go to horizontal (with the balls pointing to the wall) without closing the valve you are not limiting the speed of the engine.

When the captain called for balls to the wall, we stoked the fire and pushed the throttle to full.

The latter airplane stuff is here also...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=balls+to+the+wall
This post was edited by Dunk at 12:54:42 01/18/10 2 times.

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JMOR

01-18-2010 09:57:23
72.181.166.239



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Dunk, 01-18-2010 07:05:16  

Dean said: (quoted from post at 11:57:59 01/18/10) An interesting aside is the phrase "balls to the wall."

The phrase entered the vernacular in the days of stationary steam engines, which were usually housed in engine houses, and was coined by the engine operators to mean "wide open. That's all she'll do."

The engines were equipped with flyball governors usually mounted near one side of the engine near the wall of the engine house. When centrifugal force forced the balls were fully outward, i.e., as close to the wall as possible, the steam valve was wide open and the engine was producing maximum power for the conditions.

Dean
And the story behind, "ballin the jack" would be........?

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Dean

01-18-2010 10:24:36
67.172.13.37



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to JMOR, 01-18-2010 09:57:23  
Got me.

Dean



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Jim Oregon

01-18-2010 09:02:49
71.222.19.198



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Jeff (WI), 01-18-2010 07:05:16  
Hi Jeff,

If you google governor topics a bit on the internet you will find some good descriptions of governor mechanics and operation. I did that in the past I recall finding a good article or two.

Otherwise, I bet some of the venerable members of this forum may have a link for you. I've just replaced my governor with a used one I bought on the internet and the tractor is running better. I'm trying to figure out how to adjust the linkages.

I've not yet figured that out entirely.

Jim

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Dean

01-18-2010 07:57:59
67.172.13.37



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Jeff (WI), 01-18-2010 07:05:16  
An interesting aside is the phrase "balls to the wall."

The phrase entered the vernacular in the days of stationary steam engines, which were usually housed in engine houses, and was coined by the engine operators to mean "wide open. That's all she'll do."

The engines were equipped with flyball governors usually mounted near one side of the engine near the wall of the engine house. When centrifugal force forced the balls were fully outward, i.e., as close to the wall as possible, the steam valve was wide open and the engine was producing maximum power for the conditions.

Dean

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Jerry/MT

01-18-2010 11:54:18
206.183.116.129



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Dean, 01-18-2010 07:57:59  
"Balls to the wall" is a flying term.

The throttles on early airplanes had spherical knobs at the end of the throttle lever. Putting the throttle as far forward as possible commanded max power and put them close to the firewall. Hence "ball"s to the wall" means command max engine power.

Jerry Laskody
Retired Aircraft Propulsion Engineer



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Dean

01-18-2010 13:09:00
67.172.13.37



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Jerry/MT, 01-18-2010 11:54:18  
The phrase was indeed used, perhaps adopted, by aviators with a similar meaning, but it appears that the phrase had entered the vernacular prior to the aviation age.

One plausible origin from a steam reference is a condition where the flyball governor speed regulation is at least partially bypassed such that the engine can operate above design speed by adjusting the mechanism so that the flyballs can extend as nearly horizontal, i.e., "to the wall" as allowed by the stops without closing the steam valve.

In this manner, the engine could produce more power than design intention (in some conditions) at least temporarily.

One would think that such operation of a large stationary steam engine would require close attention by the operator(s).

Balls to the wall, indeed.

Dean

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Bob

01-18-2010 13:43:37
69.178.228.68



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Dean, 01-18-2010 13:09:00  
I'm sure that's POSSIBLE, there's 'most always exceptions to how things work.

HOWEVER, in the heyday of steam engines, typically the governor and it's steam valve were one unit. Governor weights OUT, steam valve closed.

Here's ONE example... as you can see, the pressure-balanced steam valve is forced closed as the weights move up/outward, throttling the steam flow.

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Dean

01-18-2010 17:37:09
67.172.13.37



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Bob, 01-18-2010 13:43:37  
I agree that such governor/valve assemblies were often used on steam traction engines as well as stationary farm engines but this was not generally true of large stationary industrial engines using Reynolds (and later) Corliss valve gear to vary steam and exhaust valve timing with engine load to achieve improved efficiency.

Such valve gear was usually mounted on the exterior of the cylinder housing(s) in close proximity to the steam and exhaust valves therein. The flyball governor was mounted nearby and connected to the valve gearing by adjustable linkage(s).

Dean

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Jerry/MT

01-18-2010 14:18:23
206.183.116.129



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Bob, 01-18-2010 13:43:37  
Bob, respectfully, I don"t know if I agree with you. Your picture only shows the flyball force system. There is also a spring system that is acting in the opposite direction to the flyball force which opens the throttle. they must both be present to control the rpm.

When the throttle lever is applied to increase rpm there is a force applied to a spring which transmits the sping force to open the throttle position to achieve a higher rpm. As the rpm increases the flyballs apply an opposing force to tend to close the the throttle and when the forces are balanced the throttle remains in an increased position to maintain the higher rpm.

If the load increases, the rpm starts to drop which reduces the flyball force and the spring drives the throttle more open to tend to hold the rpm. If the load decreases, the speed tends to increase and the flyball force increases and tends to close the throttle again to try to maintain speed. When max rpm is commanded, there is usually a stop to keep the throttle going beyond a certain point or the flyball lever is at a right angle and can no longer apply an opposing force. At least that"s the way I understand it. I don"t know how you could explain how the governor allows increasing the speed by your statement.

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Bob

01-18-2010 08:54:27
69.178.228.68



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Dean, 01-18-2010 07:57:59  
That sounds like a good story, but I have a hard time believing it's factual.

As the governor weights fly outward (indicating SPEED) the movement of the weights/governor mechanism would act to close the throttling valve, restrict steam flow (throttle back the engine).

The only way there can be full steam flow is if the weights remain in their inward position, at which point the governor will allow full steam flow.

As good as it may sound to those who don't know how a flyball governor works, I SUSPECT this is a my, much like the brass monkey/cannonball thing.

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Bob

01-18-2010 12:22:38
69.178.228.68



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Bob, 01-18-2010 08:54:27  
"this is a my"

OBVIOUSLY should read "this is a myth".



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Dean

01-18-2010 10:23:54
67.172.13.37



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Bob, 01-18-2010 08:54:27  
Good catch.

I must admit that I related the story as it was related to me without giving it much thought.

Perhaps the old fellow was referring to maximum speed rather than maximum power.

Dean



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tooltimejim

01-18-2010 07:43:06
208.83.206.163



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Jeff (WI), 01-18-2010 07:05:16  
Jeff , rpm regulator= Governor. Weights move out, and or collapse, the way I understand it, when the weight's move out,or away, it causes resistance on the governor linkage to carb. Kind of a cheesey answer to your question. Jim



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teddy52food

01-18-2010 07:41:59
209.237.111.169



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 Re: How does a governor actually work....? in reply to Jeff (WI), 01-18-2010 07:05:16  
The spring tries to keep the throttle open & the flyweights try to close it. If the engine slows down under load the spring opens the throttle to compensate. When the load decreases the engine speeds up & the flyweights close it down again. This is all balanced out to where it is very smooth.



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