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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

hydraulic oil

Author  [Modern View]
brian70ss

07-29-2009 14:06:50
69.18.1.238



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can I use the 303 hyd. oil to change the tranny and rear end oil in my 49 8n. or do I need something different. thanks in advance.




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TheOldHokie

08-01-2009 04:28:39
96.236.83.235



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to GB in MT., 07-29-2009 14:06:50  

36 coupe said: (quoted from post at 05:57:21 08/01/09) Ive posted the facts.134 wont work in all tractors.The ring gear and pinion of the 9n are the same as a 29 Model A big truck.These gears were made to run in a 140 extreme pressure oil, not thin oil that gets thinner when it heats up.Ford Motor co did not reccomend using 134 in old tractor.New Holland did when the pulled the Ford label off the tractors.I have 90 ep in the differential of my 600.Kendall Ken Tran is a 40 weight transmission oil used in big trucks.We all know that old worn tractors cant use the 10/30 oils.They run better on original spec oils.Many 9n owners complain of increased leakage when 134 is used.134 is thin like atf fluid.A fellow who worked blending ATF said this.He started with a 20 weight oil and added red dye and seal conditioners.


Lots of opinion - very little fact there. You are entitled to your opinion but just because it's your opinion doesn't make it a fact.
And you are consumed with this idea that 134D is a "20 weight" oil that thins excesively when hot and isn't suitable for use in the differential of old tractors. So here are two facts:

1) The viscosity of Castrol UTF ( a 134D eqiuvalent) is 9.39 cSt @100C

2) The SAE viscosity specification for grade 80 gear oil is a minimum of 7.0 and a maximum of 10.9 cSt @100C.

So Castrol UTF (e.g. 134D) is on the high end of the SAE 80 gear oil band and is "thicker" than many SAE 80 gear oils when its VERY hot. That doesn't mean it's going to work as well as an SAE 90 gear oil in old worn out hydraulic pumps like the one on your tractor. But it does suggest that maybe the engineers actually know what they are talking about when they say it is suitable for use in the final drive of old tractors. SAE 90 gear oil was the best they had in 1940 - newer products have been developed and despite looking different they perform quite well. The viscsoity index of UTF is extremely high - nearly double a conventional gear oil. That's why it looks thin in the bucket but holds it's viscosity when hot.

So go ahead and use your SAE 90 gear oil in your worn out machine. I'll fix mine and use something that works a little better when it's cold and I'm plowing snow.

TOH

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Dunk

07-31-2009 16:00:57
68.186.216.102



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to soqueu, 07-29-2009 14:06:50  

36 coupe said: (quoted from post at 19:13:48 07/31/09) Dunk,the experts have made a good case for 134 fluid.Now I will tell you what Ive learned using it in My 600.I have a vane pump on the tractor.In cold weather I can lift an 8 to 12 foot ash log I cut some dying white Ash from field edges.This is using my carry all.At 80 degrees I can lift 3 bales of hay at best.My cord wood saw weighs 300 lb.I cant lift it on a hot day.134 fluid thins badly when hot.I have 134 in my hydraulic system.It will cost 499 bucks to rebuild the vane pump or 1500 bucks plus to put on a piston pump.134 may be ok in new tractors but its worthless in old tractors.A Kendall oil has been reccomended but no one in the state handles it.


My 8N works great on the thin GL-5.

It is very hard to get mine work at all on GL-1 until it is good and hot.

Even then it is sluggish.
This post was edited by Dunk at 16:05:23 07/31/09.

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TheOldHokie

07-31-2009 15:50:17
96.236.83.235



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to Ed S. (IL), 07-29-2009 14:06:50  

36 coupe said: (quoted from post at 18:13:48 07/31/09) Dunk,the experts have made a good case for 134 fluid.Now I will tell you what Ive learned using it in My 600.I have a vane pump on the tractor.In cold weather I can lift an 8 to 12 foot ash log I cut some dying white Ash from field edges.This is using my carry all.At 80 degrees I can lift 3 bales of hay at best.My cord wood saw weighs 300 lb.I cant lift it on a hot day.134 fluid thins badly when hot.I have 134 in my hydraulic system.It will cost 499 bucks to rebuild the vane pump or 1500 bucks plus to put on a piston pump.134 may be ok in new tractors but its worthless in old tractors.A Kendall oil has been reccomended but no one in the state handles it.


The 134D/UTF fluids work fine in old and new tractors - it works poorly in worn out hydraulic systems old or new. You have an old tractor with worn out pump and it performs poorly for you. So yes you can continue to use a heavier gear oil which works better in lieu of spending the money to fix the real problem. You have identified your real problem - a worn out vane pump - and you have made your choice. But your particular problem does not make UTF unsuitable for use in an old tractor with a healthy hydraulic system. In those tractors it works fine AND performs better in cold weather. So lets just give the folks the facts and let them choose accordingly.

TOH

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36 coupe

08-01-2009 02:57:21
216.220.250.151



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to TheOldHokie, 07-31-2009 15:50:17  
Ive posted the facts.134 wont work in all tractors.The ring gear and pinion of the 9n are the same as a 29 Model A big truck.These gears were made to run in a 140 extreme pressure oil, not thin oil that gets thinner when it heats up.Ford Motor co did not reccomend using 134 in old tractor.New Holland did when the pulled the Ford label off the tractors.I have 90 ep in the differential of my 600.Kendall Ken Tran is a 40 weight transmission oil used in big trucks.We all know that old worn tractors cant use the 10/30 oils.They run better on original spec oils.Many 9n owners complain of increased leakage when 134 is used.134 is thin like atf fluid.A fellow who worked blending ATF said this.He started with a 20 weight oil and added red dye and seal conditioners.

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Kenster

07-30-2009 09:51:30
67.142.130.17



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to E. Ray, 07-29-2009 14:06:50  
Brian, where are you located? The experience of many, including me, is that 134X fluid is thinner and is more suitable for northern, colder climates.

I live in very hot southeast Texas. I tried 134D last year because TSC was out of 90W mineral oil. I immediately began to have a rapid leak down on my hydraulic lift. I also began to have leaks and seepage at just about every seal and orifice on the tractor.
When I switched back to 90W this year, all of that seepage and leak down stopped.
From my understanding 134x, being thinner, helps things out when it gets really cold. But you may not be happy with it, or its equivilent (303) if you live in a hot climate.

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brian70ss

07-30-2009 13:05:05
64.136.26.225



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to Kenster, 07-30-2009 09:51:30  
Hi, I live in iowa. Though it gets cold here I do not plan on using this tractor in the winter. I plan on putting it away for the winter. I have a blade on my truck for plowing. Brian



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Harold Russi

07-30-2009 09:22:24
98.190.179.9



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to brian70ss, 07-29-2009 14:06:50  
Just got 5 gal (65-205) from NAPA for $32.



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TheOldHokie

07-29-2009 18:42:05
129.6.59.52



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to easttexn, 07-29-2009 14:06:50  

brian70ss said: (quoted from post at 20:40:19 07/29/09) now i am evan more confused after the very detailed reply be hokie. sounds like he says I CAN use the 303. sorry guys. Brian


My apologies for confusing you - I have that effect on a lot of people. That and I put them to sleep :lol:
The folks that make the 303 product claim it is equivalent to the Ford M2C134x fluid that Ford currently recommends for use in N-series tractors. Assuming that is a trustworthy claim backed by the appropriate testing (and I have no reason to think otherwise) it is fine for use in your tractor. Someone will likely jump in and tell you it's not as good as a SAE 90 gear oil. I disagree but if you want to use gear oil instead it will perform adequately as well. Bruces 50 tips is a good source of easy to understand info on the pros and cons of the two.

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 18:44:07 07/29/09.

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brian70ss

07-29-2009 19:12:52
166.222.252.195



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to TheOldHokie, 07-29-2009 18:42:05  
No apology needed. But putting it the way you did I understand. I think I am going to use the 303. It will save me a few bucks. Not trying to be cheap but I am currently in the unemployment line and trying to keep up with preventative maintainance. I have only had the tractor for a couple months and trying to get started on routine maint. I have no idea when it was done last if ever. Thanks Brian

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Dunk

07-29-2009 17:59:54
68.186.216.102



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to TOM N MS, 07-29-2009 14:06:50  

brian70ss said: (quoted from post at 21:40:19 07/29/09) now i am evan more confused after the very detailed reply be hokie. sounds like he says I CAN use the 303. sorry guys. Brian


Well you need to listen to TOH, he wouldn't tell you wrong on purpose, and when he says something most of the time I believe him (I don't remember a time I didn't).

You can also be just as confused over all of this stuff, as I have always been.

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brian70ss

07-29-2009 17:40:19
166.229.21.16



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to brian70ss, 07-29-2009 14:06:50  
now i am evan more confused after the very detailed reply be hokie. sounds like he says I CAN use the 303. sorry guys. Brian



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TheOldHokie

07-29-2009 16:32:41
96.236.83.235



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to Bruce (VA), 07-29-2009 14:06:50  

Dunk said: (quoted from post at 18:36:07 07/29/09)
TheOldHokie said: (quoted from post at 19:32:58 07/29/09)
brian70ss said: (quoted from post at 17:56:52 07/29/09) Well I guess my question really is on the back of the bucket it says the 303 premium transmission and hydraulic fluid may be used where these man. part numbers are used. Under the ford/nh listing it says it is equivelent to
ESN-M2C,134B, C. So I thought that the m2c-134b meant that it would be ok to use. I am asking advice because I am new to this. And wanting to make sure I understand properly. I cant afford to tear something up right now. Brian


If it's suitable for use where M2C-134x is specified it is fine.

TOH


I don't think I would use it.

Its viscosity is comparable to a 10W/20 fluid. It is formulated to provide the desired performance in various pieces of equipment, including the following:
NEW HOLLAND (Ford)
ESN-M2C-86-A
ESN-M2C-134-A
ESN-M2C-134-B
ESN-M2C-134-C
ESN-M2C-134-D
ESN-M2C-77-A
ESN-M2C-41-A
More:

http://www.texasrefinery.com/lb-special303.htm

But then I don't know, and I have used GL-5, and I now have about half GL-1 and GL-5.

10W/20 fluid seems awful light.....


Dunk noted: "Its viscosity is comparable to a 10W/20 fluid".
That sentence illustrates the confusion the SAE system has produced. There is no such thing as a 10w20 fluid. Those numbers are grade numbers that only apply to MOTOR OIL. But people throw them around willy nilly and use them as a generic measure of viscosity when in fact they are not. For example:

The New Holland M2C-134D is a SAE 10W20 weight oil.
The New Holland M2C-134D is also an SAE 80 weight oil.
Strangely enough both statements are "true" if we are going to allow that sort of casual usage. That's because a grade SAE 80 gear oil and an SAE grade 20 motor oil HAVE THE SAME VISCOSITY. Sorry Dunk - wasn't shouting at you - it's simply my frustration with the confusion and misunderstanding this system creates. The SAE viscosity requirement of a SAE 20 grade motor oil is anything in the range 5.6-9.3 cSt. The SAE viscosity requirement for SAE 80 grade gear oil is 7.0 - 10.9 cSt

And all the 10W part means is it has a very high viscosity index and doesn't get thick as molasses when it gets cold - as in near freezing.

It is by all appearances a generic UTF and should work just fine.

TOH
This post was edited by TheOldHokie at 16:49:15 07/29/09 2 times.

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TheOldHokie

07-29-2009 15:32:58
129.6.59.52



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to T,D. from Iowa., 07-29-2009 14:06:50  

brian70ss said: (quoted from post at 17:56:52 07/29/09) Well I guess my question really is on the back of the bucket it says the 303 premium transmission and hydraulic fluid may be used where these man. part numbers are used. Under the ford/nh listing it says it is equivelent to
ESN-M2C,134B, C. So I thought that the m2c-134b meant that it would be ok to use. I am asking advice because I am new to this. And wanting to make sure I understand properly. I cant afford to tear something up right now. Brian


If it's suitable for use where M2C-134x is specified it is fine.

TOH

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36 coupe

07-31-2009 15:13:48
216.220.250.202



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to TheOldHokie, 07-29-2009 15:32:58  
Dunk,the experts have made a good case for 134 fluid.Now I will tell you what Ive learned using it in My 600.I have a vane pump on the tractor.In cold weather I can lift an 8 to 12 foot ash log I cut some dying white Ash from field edges.This is using my carry all.At 80 degrees I can lift 3 bales of hay at best.My cord wood saw weighs 300 lb.I cant lift it on a hot day.134 fluid thins badly when hot.I have 134 in my hydraulic system.It will cost 499 bucks to rebuild the vane pump or 1500 bucks plus to put on a piston pump.134 may be ok in new tractors but its worthless in old tractors.A Kendall oil has been reccomended but no one in the state handles it.

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brian70ss

07-29-2009 14:56:52
64.136.26.225



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to brian70ss, 07-29-2009 14:06:50  
Well I guess my question really is on the back of the bucket it says the 303 premium transmission and hydraulic fluid may be used where these man. part numbers are used. Under the ford/nh listing it says it is equivelent to ESN-M2C,134B, C. So I thought that the m2c-134b meant that it would be ok to use. I am asking advice because I am new to this. And wanting to make sure I understand properly. I cant afford to tear something up right now. Brian

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Bruce (VA)

07-29-2009 14:14:00
24.125.26.10



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 Re: hydraulic oil in reply to brian70ss, 07-29-2009 14:06:50  
Well, I wouldn't use it because I don't see any reference to it meeting Ford specs. Of course, I just did a quick Google search. Maybe it's ok.

FWIW, my recommendations are in tip 3 at the link below.



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