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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting...

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TRCTRMAN

03-16-2006 05:50:31
208.226.210.206



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1949 Ford 8n, one wire alternator, non-standard three position key switch, automotive 12v 4 terminal solenoid, round four nipple 12 volt coil one connection.

I have the one wire alternator loop connected through ammeter, to battarey termnial side of solenoid, and into the battery connection of the key switch. From the S side of the solenoid I am connected to the starter side of the key swicth. From the I side of the solenoid I am connected to the igniiton side of the key switch. Also from this igniton side of the key switch I then connect to a two posiiton ressitor. On the other side of this resistor is the connection to the coil.

The question I have is should the I side of the solenoid be connected to the wire leading directly to the coil on the resistor? Wouldnt this allow at least 12 volts to the coil for starting and then once runnign the I side of the solenoid would no longer be feeding the coil but the coil would be fed through the ressitor to protect from overheating?

I understand the alternator puts out more than 12 volts and then goes through the key switch and then the resistor to reduce voltage as not to burn up the 12 volt coil. However, when starting don't I want that direct connection without resisitance to the coil for better sparkies? Then once I am done turning the key switch to the start position and it goes back to the on posiiton once started for running, the I side of the solenoid is no feeding the coil and I am feedign voltage through the resistor and key switch again to step down the voltage as not the burn up the coil? Is this correct?

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dave guest

03-16-2006 20:59:54
4.229.177.143



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to TRCTRMAN, 03-16-2006 05:50:31  
All info you need has been posted. You have to decide do you want key start, button start,or both? If your button is a grounding type 1 terminal, you only have 2 choices. Purpose of solenoid as you are using it is to allow bypass of resistor for starting only delivering full battery voltage to coil. Only applies to ford type with S and I terminals. Second solenoid type only feature is allowing key switch to start. No bypass possible. Talking 12 volt.

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TRCTRMAN

03-16-2006 08:08:57
208.226.210.206



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to TRCTRMAN, 03-16-2006 05:50:31  
I have been unsuccessful at wiring up the solenoid to my push button. Therefore I asusme it is the ungrounded type.

The solenoid is grounded to the starter (not by bolting but by a wire from framework to outer shell mounting screw on starter). The replacment solenoid has a different frame.

I assume this is the nongrounded type. Therefore it should not be "hot" after starting?



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Dell (WA)

03-16-2006 09:10:05
172.197.32.32



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to TRCTRMAN, 03-16-2006 08:08:57  
Trctrman.........you write........"The question I have is should the I side of the solenoid be connected to the wire leading directly to the coil on the resistor? Wouldnt this allow at least 12 volts to the coil for starting and then once runnign the I side of the solenoid would no longer be feeding the coil but the coil would be fed through the ressitor to protect from overheating?"........the answer is YES.

you write........."I have been unsuccessful at wiring up the solenoid to my push button"........you told me you understood why you could NOT use the BIG thumb grounding pushbutton safety neutral interlocked switch by the tranny shifter; because you understood that the 4-terminal automobile type solenoid was internally grounded and is operated by supplying 12-volts from your 3-terminal twist-to-start replacement automotive ignitition switch........now you don't understand?

you write........."I assume this is the nongrounded type. Therefore it should not be "hot" after starting?"........the answer is YES

For all your "understanding", you're still asking alotta questions. (thats ok to ask questions) What is it you really don't understand? What is it you are really having problems with?........respectfully, Dell

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TRCTRMAN

03-16-2006 10:30:25
208.226.210.206



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 Dell what do you think? in reply to Dell (WA), 03-16-2006 09:10:05  
Dell,
I do understand about why the 4 termianl push button will not work. I was a little confuesd by one of the other repsosnes stating that there are other 4 termianl solenoids which do work.

I am askign a lot of questions becuase obviously I have zero experiecne with all of this stuff and I do not want to burn up any components and also want to be able to trouble shoot and work on my sytem aagin in the future if necessary.

The big question I had today, and I am glad you have repsponded, is about using the I termainl directly to the coil. In a previos quaetion you had eluded to that and it took me some digestion and looking at my current wiring to make sure it would work.

So I will change that connection..

Now here is another question you discussed before... I can use my original 6 volt solenoid even thought I have converted to 12 volts? This interests me because I do want to use my push button safety. Could you please explain?

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Bob

03-16-2006 19:36:07
64.21.249.40



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 Re: Dell what do you think? in reply to TRCTRMAN, 03-16-2006 10:30:25  
In another post, I showed you a 4-wire solenoid, even listed a part number, that will work for what you are trying to do.

Dell has told you an original 6-Volt solenoid will work on 12-Volts, should you decide to use it... the reason being that the solenoid engages only for the few seconds it takes for the tractor to crank and start.

What more could we tell you to make a "believer" out of you?????????

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souNdguy

03-16-2006 08:26:17
12.65.156.183



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to TRCTRMAN, 03-16-2006 08:08:57  
What Bob is saying.. is that a 4 terminal isolated solenoid can be used with the oem push button switch. On the 4 terminal iso units.. you have 2 big and 2 little studs. the little studs go to power and ground.. don't matter which polarity.. the big studs go to battery and starter. What you do is wire one of the little wires hot to the battery, and then the other little wire to your thumb switch.

4 terminal ignition bypas solenoids ( most common) have 2 big studs and 2 little studs. 1 big stud to battery, 1 big stud to starter... case of solenoid is grounded to starter.. 1 little terminal ( usually S ) to switched power from an auto style spring loaded key switch.. the other small terminal , (usually marked I), is the ignition bypass terminal and gets wired to the coil to bypass the ignition resistor during starting.. When the key switch is let up, I and S will not have power, starter side of solenoid will not have power.. etc.

hard to diagnose this stuff if you don't have at least a rudimentary understanding of electronic theory, and a vom or at least a test lamp.... no offense.. but if you are having wire problems.. you might want to enlist some electrically inclined person to help you..

Soundguy

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TRCTRMAN

03-16-2006 09:10:58
208.226.210.206



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to souNdguy, 03-16-2006 08:26:17  
Currently what I have is a wire from the small s terminal to the starter side of key switch. I have a wire from the small I side of the solenoid to the ignition side of the key swithc. Also coming off this igniitnon side of the key swithc is a wire running to a resisitor. The other side of the resistor runs to the coil.

Everything works but my push button safety switch does not work when I try to wire it up. I assume becasue it the 1 of the two types of solenoids whihc do not allow grounding (whihc is what the push button does).

Because the tractor seems to not want to start that easy, I though it was because I have the wire from the I side of the solenoid running thourhg the resisitor when i shoud really have it run to the side of the resistor that the coil is connected to for better starting.

Any thoughts?

Also, Dell had mentioned in another email that on a 12 volt alternator conversion, there is no reason to change the original 6 volt solenoid which uses my puch button. Thouhgts on that?

If so I can hook my original solenoid back up.

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Bob

03-16-2006 09:17:45
64.21.249.40



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to TRCTRMAN, 03-16-2006 09:10:58  
You do NOT need to wire from the solenoid's "I" terminal back to the ignition switch.

You have the WRONG type of 4-wire solenoid for this application.

The original 6-Volt solenoid will work on 12-Volts, with acceptable service life, and get your tranny-top switch working again.



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Bob

03-16-2006 09:30:49
64.21.249.40



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to Bob, 03-16-2006 09:17:45  
I have posted this before. Here is a partial diagram of a system that uses a 4-wire solenoid (of the proper design), and requires that the key switch be "ON" AND the safety tranny-top starter button ALSO be pressed, for the engine to crank over.

An example part number is given. If your favorite auto parts store doesn't carry the Standard Ignition brand, they SHOULD be able to cross the number over to their store brand.

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Bob

03-16-2006 08:20:13
64.21.249.40



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to TRCTRMAN, 03-16-2006 08:08:57  
So, do you have it wired up so you must turn the key switch to "START" AND then depress the tranny-top neutral safety start button?



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Bob

03-16-2006 06:20:04
64.21.249.40



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to TRCTRMAN, 03-16-2006 05:50:31  
What is the make and part number of the starter solenoid?

There are several different ways the "I" and "S" can be connected internally.

On one version, the "I" is (as you are thinking) for start bypass. Another version (non-grounded base) internally connects both coil ends to the "I" and "S" terminals. With THIS version, you could keep your tranny-top neutral-safety switch in operaton.

Further, if you are using a "12-Volt" square can coil, the resistor used will be only about 1/2 Ohm, and does NOT need to be bypassed for starting.

Also, PLEASE consider a system that WILL keep the neutral-safety switch in the circuit. The life you save may be your OWN.

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K.LaRue-VA

03-16-2006 07:05:50
204.213.15.81



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 Re: 4 terminal solenoid and wiring for starting... in reply to Bob, 03-16-2006 06:20:04  
Ditto on the Neutral Safety Switch. Please find a way to retain this safety feature. Even a limit switch on the clutch pedal would be better than nothing (push clutch pedal down to close switch in START wire). Also, the original resistor on these tractors provided the hotter spark at start-up because the resistance goes up as it gets warmer.



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