Alcohol in gas


i have never burned anything but E10 in my 2N. i've had it for 7 years and it runs just fine on it.
 
I should say early ford 8N
I have redone carb and checked governor.
Flushed fuel tank and cleaned sediment bowl and filter.
Starting to get puzzled.
 
Probably not unless your carburetor has one of the once VERY common "Viton" needle valves.

All bets are off if it does.

Yes, there are other issues that alcohol can cause depending upon equipment and conditions.

Why take the chance?

Dean
 
Not if it's fresh and everything else is O.K. (some older rubber/plastics deteriorate)

That being said I avoid "corn fuel" like a disease, as left standing long enough will cause all sorts of problems. It will: phase separate when it sucks up enough water, leave snot like deposits in the fuel system, corrode aluminum and magnesium parts, and also rot certain types of older rubber/plastic fuel system parts.

If you run it don't store it. Run the tank dry or at least run the carb dry. If you run fresh stuff not much bad will happen in an N
 
(quoted from post at 12:49:31 07/19/18) Not if it's fresh and everything else is O.K. (some older rubber/plastics deteriorate)

That being said I avoid "corn fuel" like a disease, as left standing long enough will cause all sorts of problems. It will: phase separate when it sucks up enough water, leave snot like deposits in the fuel system, corrode aluminum and magnesium parts, and also rot certain types of older rubber/plastic fuel system parts.

If you run it don't store it. Run the tank dry or at least run the carb dry. If you run fresh stuff not much bad will happen in an N
est answer
 
Saw your response and got curious about the Viton. Every place I looked says Viton is totally compatible with Ethanol. So no problem with that.

I agree with Mad Farmer on its use. I only use it if I'm going to burn it, not long term storage. Doesn't seem to hold up well over time.
 
It's your tractor so do as you like.

That said: "Viton" needle valves came out in the early/mid 1960s. BTDT.

You're turn.

Dean
 
Okay I just soaked, blewout, and rebuilt
the carb so the needle and seat should be
fine..
It is driving me nuts.. I can start and
it runs fine, I decide to go and try to
mow, it starts sputtering looses power then
starts running okay for s minute or less
then starts bearly running. And back fires.
Think it is still the carb, or could it
be a head gasket?
 
(quoted from post at 14:35:11 07/19/18) Okay I just soaked, blewout, and rebuilt
the carb so the needle and seat should be
fine..
It is driving me nuts.. I can start and
it runs fine, I decide to go and try to
mow, it starts sputtering looses power then
starts running okay for s minute or less
then starts bearly running. And back fires.
Think it is still the carb, or could it
be a head gasket?
o, is motion a factor? Moving sloshes gas around in the carb bowl. I have seen bad seal between bowl & rest of carb that would be momentarily sealed, then not, etc. by the sloshing gas. Acted like intermittent ignition & very difficult to isolate. Finally found it an fixed gasket/mating surfaces problem.
 
..and another one recently where mis-firing, seemingly randomly, on different cylinders. Plugs with few hours on them, but swapped to another set & problem fixed.
 
Well said, you hit a home run with your ethanol observations. You could add that ethanol boils out when engines run warmer like in hot summer. Also to have it phase separate you don't even need moisture, All you need to do is add non-ethanol gas or sometimes just a different grade or brand. Last but not least even Al Gore has proclaimed that it was a huge mistake!
 
(quoted from post at 16:19:40 07/19/18)
Last but not least even Al Gore has proclaimed that it was a huge mistake!

i'm a tree-hugger, and i agree with al on this one. imo, it's nothing but chuck grassley pork and it serves no greater good for the public or the planet.

but, that being said - while i wouldn't put the stuff in my chainsaw on a double dog dare, it still has caused me zero problems with my N, and i never run the carb dry. when i park it, i turn off the key and then the gas.
 
(quoted from post at 10:16:40 07/19/18) Will 10% ethenol in gas cause not to run correctly?

I use it it bothof my 8ns and my Jon Deere crawler. Have been since the junk cam out and have had no problems with them. I did have a honda generator carb gunk up when I left gas in it for several years. I don't do anyting special, one I turn the gas off and walk away and let it runs till it runs out of gas. It has a magneto, the other I just turn the key off and walk away, same with the JD. I don't like it, but I have no problems with it in my tractors.
 
Old Wives tails (or old husbands)! I've been using regular 10% ethanol gas in my chain saws, N's, riding lawn mower and all the other air cooled power equipment I have for as long as that stuff has been around. I've never had any problem with it excluding rubber gas lines disintegrating. However I do use Sta-Bil in the gas I store.
 
(quoted from post at 15:59:59 07/19/18) Old Wives tails (or old husbands)! I've been using regular 10% ethanol gas in my chain saws, N's, riding lawn mower and all the other air cooled power equipment I have for as long as that stuff has been around. I've never had any problem with it excluding rubber gas lines disintegrating. However I do use Sta-Bil in the gas I store.
im, are you labeling your story as an 'old wives tail/tale'? :) Sounds kinda droopy to me
 

"rubber gas lines disintegrating"

i think i'm on my 4th fuel line in my stihl. i don't choose to exclude those, and i consider that to be > an old wive's tale :lol:

but it doesn't bother anything else of mine, including my N and WD.
 
From Chemours, the chemical company that holds the trademark for Viton.


mvphoto20023.jpg
 
Perhaps it is a clue that many marinas also have 100% gasoline pumps, and that ethanol did not get into the aviation business (at least while I was still flying). Those areas have a bit more inconvenience to them when you have fuel problems. My experience with 10% ethanol fuel is that my pickup got 22 mpg on 100% gasoline and only 19 mpg on 10% ethanol; my 2-cycle engines all had carb and fuel line problems within six months of using 10% ethanol; and my 150 hp Mercury fuel injected engine which is labeled for 10% ethanol (pontoon boat) had three simultaneous fuel line and engine fuel doodads to fail after sitting over the winter with a full tank.

After replacing those squirrelly fuel lines and a couple carbs in the 2-cycle things, and changing over to the more expensive 100% gasoline that two stations in towns provide, I've had no similar problems. I only use ethanol fuel now in the automobiles after these experiences. All the other engines get 100% gasoline, including the tractors. Now it is possible that I had fuel that was mistakenly over-ethanolized, since I was told that the ethanol is added to the tankers after being supposedly 90% filled, but that system is fraught with opportunities for error. There are a couple of local stations in my town that are famous for mis-calibrating their pumps (you get to put 6.5 gallons into a five gallon container...), and yes some who pay attention complain and the inspectors come and they fix it for a few weeks, then the pumps mysteriously mis-calibrate again. So I wouldn't put it past some miscreants to overdo the ethanol mix, and we pay a price for that in two ways. So if you get fresh, no-more-than 10% ethanol, you might be fine; but how do you know?

I think the ethanol idea was a good idea to try, but it has mostly failed and should be scrapped.
 
What plugs are you running? My SIL's 2N acted the same way - tune the sputter out of it, hook up the mower & sputter away! Switched out the Champs & put in AL's & cured the problem instantly!
 
(quoted from post at 16:55:48 07/19/18) From Chemours, the chemical company that holds the trademark for Viton.


mvphoto20023.jpg

Viton is one of the best elastomer choices for ethanol fuel systems and is used extensively in modern E85 applications. If a "Viton" tipped needle valve is swelling the tip is likely NOT Viton but a cheaper look-alike sold at Viton prices.

The argument over E10 is more political than technical. It works perfectly fine in many millions of over the road vehicles. I have been running E10 in [u:1c71e889f6]everything[/u:1c71e889f6] I have for a couple decades now and I don't have any unusual problems.

Small engine fuel lines/primer bulbs come in all manner of grades and materials and the consumer is really at the mercy of the seller when it comes to what they are getting. Some materials won't tolerate E10 and others do just fine. The simple fact is E10 is the standard for US pump gas and if an OEM fuel line component, small engine or otherwise, can't provide a reasonable service life using E10 blame the cheap A$$ company that makes the engine - not the fuel.

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 18:47:58 07/19/18)
(quoted from post at 16:55:48 07/19/18) From Chemours, the chemical company that holds the trademark for Viton.


mvphoto20023.jpg

Viton is one of the best elastomer choices for ethanol fuel systems and is used extensively in modern E85 applications. If a "Viton" tipped needle valve is swelling the tip is likely NOT Viton but a cheaper look-alike sold at Viton prices.

The argument over E10 is more political than technical. It works perfectly fine in many millions of over the road vehicles. I have been running E10 in [u:71dd5be4a3]everything[/u:71dd5be4a3] I have for a couple decades now and I don't have any unusual problems.

Small engine fuel lines/primer bulbs come in all manner of grades and materials and the consumer is really at the mercy of the seller when it comes to what they are getting. Some materials won't tolerate E10 and others do just fine. The simple fact is E10 is the standard for US pump gas and if an OEM fuel line component, small engine or otherwise, can't provide a reasonable service life using E10 blame the cheap A$$ company that makes the engine - not the fuel.

TOH
he problem that I have had with it is the slime & corrosion left behind when it sits too long. Lot of cleaning required & totally ruined gas tank on my welder. Everyone can say what they wish, but you just can't let it age when exposed to air very long! I try not to, but sometimes life gets in the way.
 
(quoted from post at 18:53:19 07/19/18) The problem that I have had with it is the slime & corrosion left behind when it sits too long. Lot of cleaning required & totally ruined gas tank on my welder. Everyone can say what they wish, but you just can't let it age when exposed to air very long! I try not to, but sometimes life gets in the way.

That is a major concern - like you I make an effort to keep the fuel fresh.

TOH
 
No alcohol in av gas for many reasons. I run 100 L/L in my planes, mowers , welders and anything I can. It has none of the varnish associated with auto gas. I can let it sit in a mower all winter and it starts right up and runs fine. It will not ?sour? like car gas will.
 
I've got problems with the fuel system in my gasser. I let the fuel sit in the tank for about a year and now have green crystals growing in the float bowl.
I cleaned the carb once but now it's acting up again. Trouble is I don't run it enough to keep the gas fresh and didn't think to add stabil - which is expensive.
More and more the gas problems makes me appreciate a diesel. Diesels Stink! And they are noisy! They are rather unpleasant to run IMO. But I can put the diesel in the shed in October and it WILL start and run when I go to use it again in May.
 
I run E10 in all my engines. 2 cycle and 4 cycle. I don't have any problems I use cheap ATF as a stabilizer. Important to remember that gasolines are blended differently for different parts of the country. The E10 I buy in the St. Louis area may be different from yours.
 
No. In all the years of being in the fuel business and years of testing in the lab, there is no evidence of ethonal being destructive in modern fuel systems, with every day conditions. If you have dirty or allow water to contaminate the fuel then you will have a problem. In years of testing thousands of gallons of e10 we never had a problem with e10 pulling water out of the air. You will hear many old wives tails about this products. Problems comes because people do not take care of their fuel storage systems. You need a prevent cap on your storage tanks, not the old flip over fill caps.
 
(quoted from post at 22:22:44 07/19/18) No. In all the years of being in the fuel business and years of testing in the lab, there is no evidence of ethonal being destructive in modern fuel systems, with every day conditions. If you have dirty or allow water to contaminate the fuel then you will have a problem. In years of testing thousands of gallons of e10 we never had a problem with e10 pulling water out of the air. You will hear many old wives tails about this products. Problems comes because people do not take care of their fuel storage systems. You need a prevent cap on your storage tanks, not the old flip over fill caps.
here are many problems with your defense. "Allow water to contaminate". Really? On old equipment the systems are not sealed & must be ventilated, therefore are exposed to atmospheric moisture! Duh! "modern fuel systems". This is Yesterdays Tractors...or are you lost? " In years of testing thousands of gallons of e10 we never had a problem with e10 pulling water out of the air." Horse hockey, or else your 'test methods' are flawed!
 
Here we go once again. This topic pops up about once a month. The archives here hold many, many posts on ethanol causing problems from gas boiling to incorrect sparkplugs. As JMOR said, horse puckey. These N?s were ran on and can run on just about any combustible fuel. Many a farmer did back in the day ?kerosene, gas, moonshine, et al. Switching spark plugs from Champion H12 to AUTO-LITE 437?s is a good one too. How does one gauge any improvement? I can see going from the Champion H10, the original 14mm spec?d plug to one of the better, hotter plugs, but with no data to backup statements like that, it is purely opinion, not fact based. Gas gets old and yucky. It will get gummy ?it always has. Straight alcohol/ethanol was used on Henry Fords? Quadracycle and other early auto experiments. Remember ETHYL/PREMIUM Gas? What do you think was in that? Adding a ?snake-oil? product like STABIL is your prerogative, it?s your tractor and your money. All of these products use on average 99% plain Mineral Spirits as the main ingredient. You doubt? Read the MSDS documents on them. If the company puts a ?disclaimer? like, ?N/A - Proprietary Information?, then they are hiding something so save your $$$ and run away. Now, note I did not say these products don?t work. Mineral Spirits is a great grease, grime, and crud, cleaner ?I use it all the time for cleaning parts. Pouring some into your gas will not harm anything in the fuel system and will loosen up some crud it may contact as well as thin out the fuel a bit. May as well just click your heels together three times and make a wish, same results. The ethanol fuel argument will evidently go on in perpetuity.

Tim Daley(MI)
 
(quoted from post at 05:08:47 07/20/18) Here we go once again. This topic pops up about once a month. The archives here hold many, many posts on ethanol causing problems from gas boiling to incorrect sparkplugs. As JMOR said, horse puckey. These N?s were ran on and can run on just about any combustible fuel. Many a farmer did back in the day ?kerosene, gas, moonshine, et al. Switching spark plugs from Champion H12 to AUTO-LITE 437?s is a good one too. How does one gauge any improvement? I can see going from the Champion H10, the original 14mm spec?d plug to one of the better, hotter plugs, but with no data to backup statements like that, it is purely opinion, not fact based. Gas gets old and yucky. It will get gummy ?it always has. Straight alcohol/ethanol was used on Henry Fords? Quadracycle and other early auto experiments. Remember ETHYL/PREMIUM Gas? What do you think was in that? Adding a ?snake-oil? product like STABIL is your prerogative, it?s your tractor and your money. All of these products use on average 99% plain Mineral Spirits as the main ingredient. You doubt? Read the MSDS documents on them. If the company puts a ?disclaimer? like, ?N/A - Proprietary Information?, then they are hiding something so save your $$$ and run away. Now, note I did not say these products don?t work. Mineral Spirits is a great grease, grime, and crud, cleaner ?I use it all the time for cleaning parts. Pouring some into your gas will not harm anything in the fuel system and will loosen up some crud it may contact as well as thin out the fuel a bit. May as well just click your heels together three times and make a wish, same results. The ethanol fuel argument will evidently go on in perpetuity.

Tim Daley(MI)


My car runs just fine on regular 10% ethanol fuel.

All of my farm engines....Chain Saw, Rototiller, Snowblower, Ford 2N, Ford 3000, Lawnmower, Trimmer...etc have been operated on regular fuel from the gas station without any fuel problems.

BUT.... I always treat all of the gas in those engines with Sta-bil and/or Sea Foam. Yes, yes....I know it costs money...but so does the non-ethanol gas from the gas station.

Plus...even non-ethanol, pure gasoline, isn't good to leave in engines and carburetors un-treated for a long time.

To me, the problem is fuel stability over the long haul. I treat for that and have had no issues. I figure if I'm going to spend the extra money; I'm going to treat the real issue that is universal among all types of gasoline...that is fuel stability and moisture.

All of these engines have started for me very easily after sitting all winter (or summer in the Snow Blower's case).

The only thing I HAVE noticed is that I've had to replace rubber fuel lines on small engines earlier than I think I should have to.

I blame that on the cheap fuel line material being used on modern small engines more than the fuel itself; especially since all of the fuel put through these engines has been treated.

To each their own, this is what has worked for me.
 
Ethanol reacts with magnesium and aluminum to form alkoxides. It will do this in fuel systems and also in the cases of two-stroke motors. Alkoxides are the grey corrosion crap you find in carbs running E10.

Ethanol is also hygroscopic, so it will facilitate moisture from the air transfering into the fuel system. Ethanol will prevent phase separation of water in fuel to a point, but unlike in the old days when only a percent or two would phase separate, 10% ethanol will result in > 10% of the fuel separating as a separate layer. This will be on the BOTTOM of the fuel tank/carb bowl so what do think goes into the engine? A can of dry gas WON'T fix that!

Want to see how much water/ethanol is in your gas? Put 5-mL in a 10-mL graduated cylinder, add 5-mL water, give it a shake. You will now observe two phases. The lower aqueous phase is ethanol/water. The amount > 5-mL is the amount of ethanol water in the original 5-mL of "corn fuel".

Like I stated, unless I run it all within a week or two I avoid "corn fuel" like a disease.

BTW, in a past life I used to teach organic chemistry at a university...........
 
So do I, Mad.

I find it appalling that all of us must modify decades of proven behavior for the sake of the few who raise corn for motor fuel.

It is doubly annoying that growing corn for use in motor fuel makes little or no economic sense and provides little or no benefit to anyone aside from special interests.

Dean
 
Non ethanol fuel is all that I use in my old gas burner tractors, four wheelers, chainsaws , string trimmer, outboard motors, generator and welder. I don?t care what some of the others have posted about E10 being okay to use, I know from my personal experience that E10 will gum up a carb and rot fuel lines , I?ll pay more at the pump for non ethanol
 
Another hot topic... :lol:

For me it's corn fuel is the cars because it costs less at the pump and gets used up pretty quickly.

For toys and anything that sits with gas in it I use non-corn fuel. Fuel stabilizer does not prevent corn fuel from degrading.
 
For what it's worth...The local farm supply has non-ethanol regular in addition to ethanol. I started mixing 50/50 regular and ethanol for all my small engines and 60+ yr. old tractors. I could see and hear an improvement in both performance and engine operation after the first tankful. I also got turned on to Star Tron by the local Stihl dealer. He consistently had people complaining about their 2 cycle equipment not running right. He said he started recommending StarTron (http://www.starbrite.com/startron) he now rarely sees any problems in 2 cycle engines that have been operated with E-gasoline treated with it. It supposedly counters the effects of ethanol, rejuvenates old fuel, and will stabilize fuel for up to 2 years. He highly recommended its use in both 2 and 4 cycle engines for improved performance and as an anti-wear preventative in all 2 cycle engines. I have been using it ever since in all my "around the house" gas and have not had any fuel problems of any kind. It may be that I have fuel shut off valves on every thing I have and use it on every shutdown to run the carb dry. YMMV

Noah W
 
Chain saw sits for months at a time with e10, always starts easly. Went to e15 in it about a month ago. Runs great on it. 1939 AC B runs great on it, lawn mowers run fine on it, motor home,vans, 2 pickups, run fine. Some sit for months at a time.
 
In the 1960s, it was possible to leave gasoline in cars, tractors, etc., for years without issues.

Try it with your ethanol.

I'll wait.

Dean
 
Most people should be more concerned about is being lied to when they think they are getting "100% GAS". The EPA is reporting that more than 95% of today's fuel is blended as E10, even 10 years ago 75% of fuel contained ethanol. What you think is 100% gas is probably not true, test it yourself for evidence.

Also most gasoline is refined as low octane fuel, and ethanol is added to raise it to the advertised octane rating. This is definitely the case for premium or high octane fuels.
 

so, even tho the EPA says 95% or more gas is ethanol, and i only know of ONE station that sells E0 - along with a full set of ethanol gas pumps - and the countless other stations i go by don't claim to sell E0, i should still think i'm being lied to when i go to that ONE pump at that ONE station? have i got that right?
 
WOW!

I thought it was a simple question. I did not think it would restart a soapbox of opinions.
To the person that suggested plugs and wires, I think you nailed it. I changed wires and was able to mow with it dieing one time...

Thanks.
 

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