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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

electrical with photos

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Caroline Chamblin

06-13-2018 17:14:44




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Hi there,
I posted several years ago about my 9n and got help from Dell. I can't remember some of the details now. Here is the current issue. This tractor has been converted to a 12 volt before I got it. Dell and I put it back to 6 volt I think. The newest thing is that after raining it would turn over strongly but not start. I got it to start eventually but running VERY rough. Not well enough to mow or drive down the driveway. SO I decided to take some photos as the other time I posted it was pre-cell phone camera days!
I do have a manual. I was going to try to troubleshoot based on the 50/75 tips advice but honestly want to clarify what I am looking at here. The first photo is looking at the back of the key switch with the back of ammeter visible. Then I have a photo with the ammeter and what is below it. Then a photo at the bottom which is below where the battery box and against the firewall. There are two round things with wires there. I would like some help identifying what I am looking at so I can test with my meter. In the second picture I have no idea if the resistor is there, where's the voltage regulator, cutout, etc. I have a front mount distributor and square can coil. However the wire from the square can runs to a round can with wires from the same terminal going towards the firewall. I also included a photo of the round coil with a red wire from the square can coil and then wires on the same terminal heading towards the firewall. I have never really got things running well this year, it's too rich and backfires, but I don't want to mess with anything until the electrical is correct. Thank you for your help, the forum has been a real blessing.
Caroline


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Bruce (VA)

06-24-2018 16:44:44




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-13-2018 17:14:44  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Good to hear that both you & the tractor are on the mend!



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Royse

06-18-2018 19:41:07




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-13-2018 17:14:44  
I think Bruce has got you on the right track here.
Yes, the wiring looks a mess and the round can coil is being used

as a junction block but if it ran like that before, it will again.

You say it runs now but runs really rough. Have you checked to
see if the spark at the plugs is a good quality spark that will jump

a 1/4 inch gap? An even simpler, free test, does pulling the choke

out part way help? Does pulling it out a bit make it worse?

Any difference in noticeable smoke out of the exhaust?

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Tim PloughNman Daley

06-14-2018 04:32:01




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-13-2018 17:14:44  
There's nothing wrong with the original 6-Volt/POS GRN electrical system nor a 12V switch over job but either way the wiring MUST be correct and by your pictures, I don't see that. I also fail to believe that the late Dell told you to wire it that way -it is all cobbled up and no where near being correct. The wiring is a mess, in addition, to be frank. You do not use a round ignition coil WITH a square can coil. There is no voltage regulator in the post 1940 9N or any 2N system. The round can cutout circuit is used WITH the 1-Wire/3-brush generator. You don't show nor mention what you have. I can help with that -email is open, need 'Classic View' option to see. You do have the cutout, but I'm betting it ain't wired correctly. You say you have the manual. Which one? Here is scan from the original 9N/2N Service Manual with the correct wiring diagram for the 6V/POS GRN system. First thing is to get the battery verified it is correct, capable of sustaining a charge under load. Take it to a starter shop or auto parts store as they have the proper test equipment. They can also bench test your generator. The battery should be a 6V GRP-1 AG type, NOT a deep cycle, automotive, or golf cart type. Batter NEG cable must be the thick as your thumb type not the thinner 12V style. The battery ground connection is best with the flat braided strap style. Your ammeter is a later type -note the light bulb socket, not used on N's, but if wired correctly will work. Also, I see no OEM Ballast Resistor. You must have one. I see what appears to be some type of ceramic thing, but it ain't right. Lastly, invest in a correct new wiring harness -Just8Ns, Dennis Carpenter, Steiners, and don't go with the cheap vinyl style. The DC one is exact-as-original right down to the fabric covered, correctly color coded style which would make it a lot easier to wire going by original diagrams and the I&T F04 Manual and "WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR".


ORIGINAL 9N/2N WIRING DIAGRAM from SERVICE MANUAL:

Tim Daley(MI)

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R Geiger

06-13-2018 18:04:26




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-13-2018 17:14:44  
I think that if it was mine, I would remove all the wiring and get a harness for a 9n, but then it looks like it has a round coil instead of the front square one. one of them round things look like a cutout relay for the generator and the other one a mechanical starter switch. good luck!



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rvirgil_KS

06-14-2018 07:29:03




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to R Geiger, 06-13-2018 18:04:26  
"a photo of the round coil with a red wire from the square can coil and then wires on the same terminal heading towards the firewall."

Enlarging and brightening the picture, there are wires on only one post of the round coil like it is being used for a junction block. But if one wire comes from the original square can coil why doesn't that go direct to ballast resistor. What is the extra wire?

Definite candidate for a total rewire project

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Bruce (VA)

06-13-2018 17:53:54




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-13-2018 17:14:44  
Take the distributor cap off and dry it out with a hair dryer. Then order a set of gaskets.

Start there and see of that helps. Post back with results.



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Caroline Chamblin

06-18-2018 18:46:14




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Bruce (VA), 06-13-2018 17:53:54  
Hi Bruce,
I removed the coil/distributor and dried it. Installed with new gaskets. Starts and runs rough still, too rough and not enough power to mow.
Just reporting back.
thanks,
Caroline



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Bruce (VA)

06-18-2018 18:49:12




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-18-2018 18:46:14  
You're making progress!


Did you set the points and timing and check the advance weights while you had the distributor off the tractor?



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Caroline Chamblin

06-18-2018 19:12:43




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Bruce (VA), 06-18-2018 18:49:12  
I am trying my best. I know the wiring looks a mess but as it was mowing and running enough to mow, your advice is the most sensible. I didn't do anything to the points or timing, I will take it off now and take a look. As far as weights go, I don't really understand that part, I have replaced points and gapped them, and replaced the condenser too (in the past). Thank you



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Caroline Chamblin

06-18-2018 23:03:44




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-18-2018 19:12:43  
I've taken off the coil/distributor and taken a couple of pictures.



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Caroline Chamblin

06-18-2018 23:19:56




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-18-2018 23:03:44  
oh and carefully thinking about the diagram in the manual, FO83, I might actually understand the timing directions. I am not sure still about the advance weights though. Not going to turn any screws until I get things more settled in my mind. I do have a Fluke multimeter but have heard the digital ones are not useful on this old tractor.



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Bruce (VA)

06-19-2018 04:44:52




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-18-2018 23:19:56  

The front distributor on the N tractors may be a bit of a surprise & mystery to some folks, but it was the norm on V-8 Ford cars and trucks from 1932 to 1948.

The front distributor was designed to come off of the tractor to replace/adjust the points. To do this, remove the wire on the coil, remove the coil bail, remove the distributor cap & take the two bolts off. The base of the distributor has an offset tang & can only go back one way unless you really force it on.

The first thing you need to check is bushing wear. If the shaft has any sideways movement AT ALL, the bushings must be replaced. (see Note 1, below) Next, if this is the first time you have had the distributor off the tractor, make sure the advance weights are in working order. (See Note 2, below)

Next, look at how the points & condenser are set in the distributor before you start pulling it down! Turn the tang & observe how the points open & close. If this is your first time doing it, draw a sketch! Make sure you are using quality points. I use only Wells, Blue Streak or Echlin brand points (See Note 3, below). Be careful not to ground the tip of the condenser wire to the body of the distributor when you replace the points. Do not break the little copper strip that go to the points. (If you do, make another out of the old set of points). Check the insulator w/ your meter. If it's bad, replace it with a Hillman Group square .375 license plate screw, Item # 138916, model #881189. Also, make sure the condenser wire does not go through the same opening in the distributor as the coil pig tail. The condenser wire goes through the opening on the top right.

Look at the old points; are they burned, pitted or misaligned? Check the point gap, .015 on all four lobes. Make sure the blade is at a perfect right angle to the points. You want to feel just the slightest bit of drag when you pull the blade through the points. Set the points on the high side of the cam and ensure they align correctly. Make sure you have the star washers under the screws on the points. If you need to replace the 8-32 X.19 fillister head screws, ensure that the new screws do not interfere with the advance weights. Dress the points by running a piece of card stock or a brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. And, don’t forget to lube the rubbing block w/ cam lube; not Vaseline, not bearing grease, but cam lube . (See Note 3, below).

If you are using quality points and cannot get the gap to open to .015, chances are you need to replace the bushings. (See Note 2, below)

Now, set the timing. Get a meter or test light, a 21/64” drill bit (See Note 4, below) & a metal straight edge. Put the distributor face down w/ the condenser on the left & the timing plate lock screw on the bottom. Look at the end of the shaft: it has a narrow side & a wide side. Make sure you can tell the difference. Now, place the drill bit in the bottom mounting hole (this will be your reference point for measuring). Next, place a straight edge on the wide side of the tang on the shaft as shown in fig. FO83 in the picture. Rotate the shaft CCW (as viewed from rotor side OR CW as viewed from back/tang side) until the straight edge is ¼" beyond the outside edge of the drill bit you stuck in the distributor mounting hole. At this distance, the distributor points should start to open (get your meter/light out now & check). If not, loosen the timing plate lock screw and turn to advance or retard the timing (move the plate down to advance timing, up to retard). Remember, each one of those little hash marks represents about 4° of timing. Keep adjusting until you get the proper ¼" setting. (if the plate won’t move, you might need to remove the big C clip to loosen it a bit) As you’re adjusting, eliminate backlash by turning the shaft backwards (CW as viewed from the front) and bring the shaft forward (CCW as viewed from the front) to measure your setting. This ¼" setting will get you static timing at top dead center.

After you set the points & timing, do a continuity check before you put the distributor back on the tractor. Do not skip this step! Before you start, make sure your meter/light works.

With the distributor still off the tractor, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Put the coil on the distributor, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!

At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil misaligned trying to put it back together, one piece at a time. The result is something gets broken or you get a ‘no spark’ problem.

It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. Whatever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts). Place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush with the timing gear cover.

Double-check your firing order & plug wires. It’s 1-2-4-3, counterclockwise. It’s very easy to cross 3 & 4 both at the cap and on the head.

And finally, do not forget to remove the distributor on at least an annual basis (more often, depending on use) to check the point gap and re-lube the cam.

Note 1: Unscrew the plate hold down screw & remove the C clip to get the plate out. Remove the shaft & weights. The weights should freely move.

Note 2: There are three ways to replace the bushings in a front distributor:

1. Buy new bushings (part numbers 9N12120 front & 18-12132 rear). Press out the old ones, press in the new ones and ream to fit. CAUTION: do not try this unless you have a press & know how to use it. If you break the base, a new one costs $130. If you bend the tower which holds the front bushing, a new plate will cost you $30.

2. Take the new bushings and distributor to your local machine shop.

3. Send the distributor out for bushing replacement if you do not have a
local machine shop.

Make sure your distributor isn’t worn out; check the wear parts with a micrometer and compare what you have to the factory specs (below).

Factory Specs:

Shaft top .4367 / .4370

Shaft Bottom .8625 / .8630

Cam Flats .789 / .791

Cam Lobes .869 / .871

Base Tang .177 / .178


Note 3: Yesterday's Tractor kit:

Premium Blue Streak points (A0NN12107ABS), rotor, condenser, and gauge Part
No: APN12000ABSR

Note 3: Distributor cam lube NAPA:

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHML1

Note 4: Rather than the drill bit, a jig made by Dan Allen (The Old Hokie) will make this task quicker & more accurate.

http://windyridgefarm.us/

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Caroline Chamblin

06-19-2018 20:28:10




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Bruce (VA), 06-19-2018 04:44:52  
Thanks Bruce,
I don't have bushing movement or wobble, I do have what I guess is endplay. Also the rotor, both the old one and the new one in a kit (Sparex kit) probably not a good kit, they are identical rotors but when put on the shaft, the rotor rotates an easy 5 degrees. Both helpers here said it should have no rotation at all once on the shaft. ?



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Bruce (VA)

06-20-2018 04:43:18




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-19-2018 20:28:10  
End play on the shaft isn't a problem; rotor rotating is. Get another one.



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Caroline chamblin

06-20-2018 17:51:04




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Bruce (VA), 06-20-2018 04:43:18  
Went to store and got rotor that fits. Will install at some point soon but having surgery to.orrow so maybe not tonight. Thank you Bruce. Tractor place affirmed that sometimes parts are no good. They just had a bad batch of coils.



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Bruce (VA)

06-20-2018 18:59:39




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline chamblin, 06-20-2018 17:51:04  
Good luck with both the surgery & the tractor.



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Caroline chamblin

06-24-2018 15:00:28




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Bruce (VA), 06-20-2018 18:59:39  
Day before surgery I took distributor to tractor parts store and got a rotor that is correct. Will install next week. Surgery ok, just healing up.now.



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deanostoybox

06-19-2018 03:26:09




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 Re: electrical with photos in reply to Caroline Chamblin, 06-18-2018 23:19:56  
"I do have a Fluke multimeter but have heard the digital ones are not useful on this old tractor."

As long as the motor is not running there is no problem with a digital meter. Some digital meters can be affected by radio frequency noise when the motor is running.



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