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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Swapping PTO Soon

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mcharley94

02-08-2018 16:10:46




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So I'm expecting the new PTO assembly for the 8N tomorrow, and once I'm through digging out from under the approaching storm that's working its way across the Midwest ATM I aim to drain all the fluid from the trans/pump/rear end reservoir and install the new assembly. I've been researching the task here on the forum and found a couple threads regarding how to go about it and what type of fluid to use. After all the work I've performed recently in an effort to correct the years of neglect from the PO I figure it's highly likely I'm going to find a thick layer of sludge at the bottom of the reservoir. As such I am looking for any tips on cleaning it all out before I reassembly everything, (and any other tips in regards to the job at hand), from those who have been there and done that. Thnx, Mark

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Dollar Bill

02-22-2018 01:44:16




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
Great! - Thanks for letting us know of your success!!



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mcharley94

02-21-2018 15:06:34




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
Job is done, no leaks, works as it should.

Thanks everyone for the advice!



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mcharley94

02-20-2018 19:04:50




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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Tanxs, HF. Yeah there wasn't any on the old one, nor was there any on the inspection plate gasket, so unless it was suggested otherwise I planned on going without on both. Fixing leaks was my main goal when I started this project and hoped to get this right in just one go. As such I figured it best to ask Bruce (and others) why/where he recommended the sealant.

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I haven't done anything since bolting the pump up into place, so no oil in play just yet. I was hoping to install the PTO and fill it with oil today, but this rapid change in weather has flared up my sciatica. Hopefully tomorrow will bring some improvement and I can get er' done.

Thank You for the replies!

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R Geiger

02-20-2018 14:24:34




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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I would not pull them to put sealer on them especially if you have oil in it. I have done two so far without sealing the bolts and have had no problems.



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HFJ

02-20-2018 09:13:41




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
i put my new PTO in without sealant, and it hasn't leaked yet. that was six years ago.



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mcharley94

02-20-2018 07:33:38




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
OK, DB...Thanks for the reply. So no sealant on PTO or Inspection Plate gasket I assume? The bolts for the pump were cleaned of all oil residue before I put them back in. I will pull each bolt individually, confirm they are still clean and dry and then replace with sealant moving on to the next. I have on hand both Ultra Grey RTV and Copper Coat Gasket Compound. Is one preferred over the other (or something different)? I also replaced the test port fitting with a stainless 1/2-20 3/4" bolt with two bronze washers (the bolt bottomed out the threads in the port without any washers and I could not find a 1/2" bolt) and put some Ultra Grey RTV on the threads hoping that will do the job.

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Dollar Bill

02-19-2018 23:22:08




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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The bolts that hold the pump on will leak unless you seal the threads.



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mcharley94

02-19-2018 13:24:32




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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Man, you weren't kidding, Bruce! I accomplished reinstalling the pump on my own by carefully using a floor jack, but I can see how another set of eyes/hands (or at the very least a 3rd arm) would have made it easier. Lining the rod up with the aid of a screw driver while at the same time sliding the pump into place wasn't too difficult, but trying to keep that darn gasket straight bout drove me to drinkin'! After regrouping three times I finally got everything to come together.

So having accomplished that joyous task I am giving my arms and shoulders a well deserved break with the plans to install the new PTO next. Before doing so I wanted to ask...in your post you mentioned needing gasket sealer for the job, but made it clear not to use it on the pump gasket. So I am just wondering what seals would this be applicable to?

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Dollar Bill

02-16-2018 02:31:31




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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To comply with the lawsuit, Ford changed the rocker, rocker pin and modified the lift to include position control.

Due to his failing health, Henry Ford II took over from Henry I in 1945 as President/CEO. While looking over the books, he realized FoMoCo was loosing money on the tractors and severed the handshake agreement with Harry. Henry I passed away before the 8N was released.

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mcharley94

02-15-2018 06:22:17




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
Hmm, well I guess I'll have another look then. Being that that plunger would also have shot out towards me it too is likely to be on the floor. I searched all over the net trying to find a breakdown of that style valve to no avail. Heck, I was only able to find one that was photo'd still in the pump, and one other sitting side by side one of the newer style, but no breakdown of one . Good Find, and Thank You.

Interesting trivia there, DB. Coincidence that Henry stopped building the N's the same year the hydraulic system was blacklisted?

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Dollar Bill

02-15-2018 05:19:17




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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Have never had one apart but according to this photo, you seem to be missing the plunger that goes between the spring and safety/relief ball valve.



The control valves are spring loaded too



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mcharley94

02-14-2018 18:15:51




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
Blown Up for better identity



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mcharley94

02-14-2018 18:11:33




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
Thought I'd add this for reference...



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mcharley94

02-14-2018 18:08:14




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
Quick question...so while removing the safety valve today I noticed the cotter key in the end of it was going to hit the control arm below it, so being that I am replacing the valve anyways I proceeded to just pull the pin out for clearance. What I didn't expect was a projectile to come shooting into my chest and onto the floor. I'm pretty confident I recovered all the pieces but I figured just to be safe I better ask. Be a pisser to get it all back together only to have some loose part foil the whole job (see photo).

And before I pull the intake/exhaust valves in an effort to clean those, is there anything else I might need to be aware of :shock: ?

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Royse

02-13-2018 16:43:59




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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Good guess. ;) The long pin it is inserted into is original though. Many are lost.

They would be used to hold stay bars for the drawbar or limiter chains for a mower, etc.



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mcharley94

02-13-2018 16:29:20




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
So the PTO and ORC finally arrived today, but now I am waiting on gaskets before I can reassembly things. Meanwhile I recall Bruce recommending some bench work for the pump (probably need parts for that too...I'll have to reread the post). I didn't block the front and jack the back when dropping the pump, Bruce...(forgot that pointer), but didn't have too much difficulty. What I did do was use the same jack/block of wood to lower it out that I had to use to break the drain plug loose. The pump didn't want to drop straight down though. What it took was to gently slide it backwards a smidgen as I began lowering it and then it came right out. Scraping the caked on gasket from the housing took far more effort. I'm not use to working overhead while under a vehicle these days and my arm and shoulder are not very happy ATM :roll:
I'm glad I did drop the pump though for there was a decent amount of sludge at the bottom of it and the surrounding region, probably a good 2-3 cups worth, which came as a surprise seeing as the trans and rear end regions were relatively clean in comparison.





And while I am posting pics, though I know I'm new to these N's I'm guessing this is not original?

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mcharley94

02-13-2018 06:05:04




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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Very Good! Well I ordered a hydraulic pump base to center housing gasket, and a new drain plug along with a few drain plug gaskets, so at this point I'm committed to at least dropping the pump to inspect. Seeing as shipping takes about a week I guess I have the time.

I do have an impact with a 1-1/16" socket. After posting my question I also read to try a pipe wrench with a piece of wood and a bottle jack. I don't have a bottle jack, but do have a floor jack....I'll probably try this option first so I can feel any movement.

Here's to hoping the remainder of the reservoir looks just as good.....Thanks for the reply, DB :!:

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Dollar Bill

02-13-2018 01:21:25




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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You're right, it wasn't much cleaner than that when brand new.
Either the tractor wasn't used in the dirt or PO had it apart and did a proper field day.

I'll be damned if I could break loose the main plug on the pump...drained it pulling a bolt next to it instead. I was able to get the one under the trans off though, but it took just about all I had in me to do so. What tool do y'all use to break em' loose?

Impact wrench. Plug is steel and case is aluminum - Not uncommon for corrosion to develop due to dissimilar metals. Coat threads of plug with anti-seize upon reassembly.

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Dollar Bill

02-13-2018 01:13:13




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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Those cracks could have been in the mold when casting the aluminum. It may be hard to see with the pump installed but the tell of the tale is whether the fissures are visible on the top side of the casting.



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mcharley94

02-12-2018 17:22:39




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
This is kinda scary though. No leaks, but WTH!



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mcharley94

02-12-2018 17:16:07




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
Well, apparently UPS was to afraid to drive down my road today...not sure why, I went out twice. Needless to say the PTO assembly is still not here. That didn't stop me from draining the fluid and pulling the old PTO. I'll be damned if I could break loose the main plug on the pump...drained it pulling a bolt next to it instead. I was able to get the one under the trans off though, but it took just about all I had in me to do so. What tool do y'all use to break em' loose?

Anyways, here is a shot of the inside of the rear end. Doesn't seem all that bad to me. I felt around the inside of the trans drain as well and it felt clean there too.

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mcharley94

02-10-2018 17:41:12




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
OK, TY for the replies. I was thinking front loader but figured I'd see what others had to say. I'll probably remove it completely and put a plug in it. Apparently UPS is holding the new PTO assembly and ORC hostage due to the recent snow, and with more expected 2moro it's likely I won't see it till mid week, which is fine.

I bought 5 gal of TSC Premium UTF today in preparation. Saw they also had something called Renew? for older tractors for more $, but I wasn't buying into it. Also something called Super Trac for like $19, but again probably not suitable so I decided to stick with what was recommended here for my zone. I did check the fluid level again today and it actually looks very clean (PO must have had our local mutual mechanic change it recently). I was thinking it seemed thin but after reading the label on the UTF I bought , maybe not? Guess I expected it to be thicker. It is a bit over full too....he probably put the full 5 gallons and never looked back. Might explain why the PTO seal leaks, but I haven't seen anything drip from the cotter key thus far. Maybe I'll get lucky and the reservoir won't be all that bad? We shall see.

I finished wiring all the lights today on a 3 position switch (fronts and tail on one, and in the second position an added rear work light). When all are on the amp meter drops into the negative at lower RPMs, but guessing that is to be expected. I plowed earlier when it was still daylight so I haven't really put it to the test yet, although I couldn't resist taking a quick buzz up and down the drive once in the dark just to see how they worked...not as bright as I'd like but it is 6 volt I guess. Better than what it had, which was nothing.

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Dollar Bill

02-09-2018 10:35:16




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
The fitting that screws into the aluminum pump housing is kind of an odd thread or I would recommend you remove the entire stand pipe. As it is, you could remove the elbow by the valve and cap it off.



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Bruce (VA)

02-09-2018 16:29:21




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to Dollar Bill, 02-09-2018 10:35:16  
It had a loader on it, plumbed off the test port.

That pump port is threaded 1/2-20 straight thread. You can buy a straight thread port fitting or you can make one from a 1/2-20 bolt. Or, check w/ The Old Hokie and see if he still sells the really nice test port gauge fitting.



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mcharley94

02-09-2018 10:24:27




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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LOL, yeah I wish my dad was still around too. He worked as a mechanical balance engineer for nearly 60 years (as if it were any wonder where I get my ayenal retentiveness from :roll:) He was employed by GM until he retired around 70 yrs of age, and then contracted himself out to them until he was almost 90! I know he would find all of this interesting.
Thanks for the input, Jim. We'll see how bad it is once I get in there and go from there.

So while we are on the subject of hydraulics...while out plowing the snow (again) I figured I should ask this of y'all... What do you make of this? I have not even attempted to open the valve and it's not really in my way, but I can just see my pant leg getting caught on it sometime in the future. My uneducated guess is that it was used for some sort of implement in the past? What's your take?

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Jim WI

02-09-2018 09:38:10




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
I did not use anything special to get the sludge out. I just dug and scraped with whatever fit. Once it was pretty clean, I just kept wiping at it with paper towels. Your mileage may vary.



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davyfireball

02-09-2018 08:49:06




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
My dad if he was still alive. I can hear him now. He would say if you can't eat off it -- You can't put it back together.



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mcharley94

02-09-2018 07:17:16




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
Well Hell, Bruce...you just answered damn near every question I was attempting to ask while composing a post in another tab (and then some), i.e. any required gaskets/seals, whether or not this can be accomplished on my own, etc. (and just to clarify, I had no plans of parking it in a ditch, but I appreciate the advice none the less :wink: ). No, my intentions are to do this particular job once and be done with it, which is why I made this inquiry in the first place. That and I am trying to heed the wisdom Tim PloughNman Daley initially shared with me in my other thread and do a little homework first before jumping into the job. Sadly, of those still alive within my small circle of friends I am basically the only one left with any mechanical abilities/interests, and as such I am pretty much a one man band when it comes to getting bloody knuckles and grease under my fingernails. TY for taking the time to compose such a detailed explanation of the task ahead. It would be handy if there were a u-tube video related to dropping the pump...I'll have a look.

Dollar Bill, I was wondering what to use to assist in cleaning the reservoir. Soundguy's concoction seems to fit the bill well, but if I do drop the pump I will probably use just straight kerosene? and most likely a good amount of elbow grease as well. My only concern here is that I am heating my 24x30 garage with a vent-less propane heater and I am worried about adding more flammables into the mix. As it is I cleaned the entire exterior of the engine off with some white gas I had left over from my camping days, (along with a toothbrush, gasket scraper, small pick, and a boat load of paper towels), but it was just a smidgen warmer out that week and I was careful to only use a minimal amount at a time in a jar and vent the garage occasionally.

So it appears the unanimous vote thus far it to, at the very least, drop the pump and clean it as well while I'm at it, which I tend to agree with...just a little concerned about disassembling it, as you suggest, Bruce. As is the case with just about anything mechanical that I've done in life, aside from a few years of agriculture and auto mechanics in high school I am pretty much self taught so tackling the unexplored can be a bit intimidating that first time. I have to say though, with the help of those here who have been kind enough to chime in I have learned a great deal about 8N's thus far, and I am sure the lessons will continue so long as I still own it.

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Bruce (VA)

02-09-2018 05:44:03




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
For info on changing the hydraulic fluid, check out tips 3 & 4 at the link below.

Resist the temptation to save 5 minutes by parking it nose down in a ditch instead of draining the fluid. The front transmission seal was not designed to be totally immersed in oil. If it's defective, you will fill the bell housing with oil and then you will get to replace the clutch.

With all of the fluid drained out, block the front wheels & get the rear wheels up at least a foot. (you'll see why soon enough) Remove the 4 bolts holding the PTO shaft in & pull it to the rear & out of the tractor. Loosen all of the bolts. Remove all but 2 corner bolts. Then, carefully remove them. If you are lucky, the pump will drop free (and dump a pint or so of hydraulic fluid down your sleeves). If not, wrestle it free. The pump has 'ears' that fit into the housing; wiggle it a bit & it will drop free. If you have the rear tires a foot or more off of the ground, you will have enough arm room to hold the pump & lower it at the same time. Put it on your work bench & remove the safety valve (p/n 638) and the control arm lever (p/n 643) which will allow you to remove the intake & exhaust valves (p/n's 640 & 698) Drop all of it in a bucket of diesel (or mineral spirits) or your parts washer & let it soak overnight. Once it has a good soaking, get it on the bench & start blowing it out w/ compressed air. Run cleaning fluid into the hydraulic discharge near the test port & make sure you get a good flow out the small hole in the side of the pump were the control valve fits. I don't see much need to pull it down any further just to clean it. But, I always replace the safety valve (p/n 638, about $25) Reinstalling the pump is harder than pulling it out because you have a gasket to worry about. (no sealer on the gasket) And, you will probably need a helper to guide the control rod into the pump rocker shaft unless you've done this 6 or 7 times before!

Put some grease on the new pto seal.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, not a lot of water gets in the oil from the shifter boot. Of course, if it's bad, replace it, but you get water from the draft control spring & the dipstick. But, most water is just a byproduct of the heating/cooling cycle of the oil. I've seen the pictures of an experiment to test the 'leaky shifter boot' theory. With no shifter boot installed, a lot of water was poured over the transmission cover sitting over a 5 gallon bucket. Result? No water in the bucket.

You'll need a pump gasket, safety valve, inspection plate gasket(s), PTO seal, PTO gasket, gasket sealer & 5 gallons of fluid to do all of the above.

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Dollar Bill

02-09-2018 02:03:51




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
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As others advised, it's best to bite the bullet and give it a thorough cleaning. It will give you better access to pull the lift cover as well as the pump.

If you're under a time crunch, I would follow Soundguy's method:

Drain oil overnight and add 3 gals kerosene, 2 qts ATF, 4 pints 90% rubbing alcohol. Cycle the hydraulics once then exhaust to clear anything in the pump that might be hanging around. Disengage the PTO and make a few low speed laps around driveway. Then drain and refill with new oil.

Theory is the kerosene makes it dump fast and dissolve most emulsion it finds. The detergents in the ATF will suspend any crud it can and the alcohol will evaporate any water in the system.

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Jim WI

02-08-2018 16:19:41




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
On my 8N, the sludge was thick that I could see a groove where the control valve moved back and forth. We had to take the top cover off anyway since the control rod was bent in a curve. Once we did that, my son and I decided that it would not be much more work to drop the pump. I'm glad I did as it was much easier to get the sludge out of the rest of the compartments with the PTO and pump both removed.

It may depend on how bad the sludge is.

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Den N Ms

02-08-2018 16:18:34




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 Re: Swapping PTO Soon in reply to mcharley94, 02-08-2018 16:10:46  
Mcharley94,If there is a bunch of sludge in there it is best to drop the pump and get it all cleaned out. Do it right one time and not have to do it again next year.



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