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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Air cleaner related starting issues

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Psucivil

12-06-2017 16:01:06




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I recently joined the 8N club and purchased a 1951 side mount that was converted to 12 volt by the previous owner. Not knowing it's history I have been slowly going over it. So far I have changed the oil and filter, plugs and wires, cleaned the fuel bowl and added a new screen and gasket I have also installed a new starter bendix as it wasn't engatthe flywheel reliably. My next item to go over was the air cleaner. I could not for the life of me get the oil cup off of the cleaner body and was beating and prying on it to the point where I was damaging it so I removed it.
I ran the tractor in the garage without the cleaner but I stuck a new rag with a hose clamp over the air tube to prevent dirt and dust from getting into the carb while I waited for a new air cleaner to arrive. Inordered one off of YT and it arrived today. I promptly installed it and added oil to the line in the cup and now the tractor will not start.
So far I have checked the following, fuel flows freely with the carb plug removed, using a plug tester I have spark at each cylinder so this is making me believe it's an air related issue. I have a carb rebuild parts kit butnhave not tore into the carb yet. Does anyone have any input or experienced anything like this before?
Thanks!

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Psucivil

12-08-2017 16:24:00




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
[quote="CVPost-Bruce (VA)"](quoted from post at 16:41:40 12/08/17) Glad to hear you got it running.

There is a good reason you had an " expensive day in the shop. "
You should consider buying new tractor parts from Just-8N's, Dennis Carp-enter or Yesterday's Tractor. Never from T-S-C because of their questionable quality and outrageous price mark up. ( T-S-C front coil, $45; YT cost, $15. T-S-C plug wires, $25; YT, $11). But, sometimes you just need that part right now. N-A-P-A has better quality and much better prices than T-S-C.
I'm guessing you paid $200 for a clone M/S carb. The same carb here is $109.

Yep I paid $200 for the carb. I would have loved to order the parts from anywhere else had waiting for them to arrive been an option. I was off work today and had time to work on the tractor so my wallet suffered accordingly.

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Psucivil

12-08-2017 12:19:35




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
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So it's been a good and expensive day in the shop. So while cleaning the carb after an all night soak in cleaner I discovered a 1" crack on the lower portion of the carb. This explains my small gas leak, I thought it due to a bad gasket between the 2 halves. So I bought a new carb at TSC while I look into ways to repair the crack (any advice on this?)

While at TSC I also picked up a 12v coil and a ford shop manual. Once home, I disconnected the resistor and tied the 2 wires together with a wire but. I plan on soldering them later tonight. I got the old coil removed and the new one installed. I also gave the point a quick cleaning with some sand paper and reset the gap to 0.025". In regards to the point what kind of lube should be used on them? I could not find points lube at autozone and I do not have a napa near me to check. Is there a specific brand of point lube anyone recommends? I installed the carb with a new screen elbow and set up the preliminary adjustments as the manual suggested. I also pulled all of the plugs and cleaned them and heated them with a torch. I also got my new air cleaner installed that I originally thought was my problem.
Guess what? It started right up. It ran a little bit rough but I was able to get the carb adjusted after the engine warmed up. I can get it to idle around 500 rpm but I can not get it to go much lower.
So I think my original issues were due to the resistor, points and potentially the cracked carb. Overall the tractor ran better then it ever has. Thanks again for those who contributed.

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Bruce (VA)

12-08-2017 15:41:40




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-08-2017 12:19:35  
Glad to hear you got it running.

There is a good reason you had an " expensive day in the shop. "

You should consider buying new tractor parts from Just-8N's, Dennis Carp-enter or Yesterday's Tractor. Never from T-S-C because of their questionable quality and outrageous price mark up. ( T-S-C front coil, $45; YT cost, $15. T-S-C plug wires, $25; YT, $11). But, sometimes you just need that part right now. N-A-P-A has better quality and much better prices than T-S-C.

I'm guessing you paid $200 for a clone M/S carb. The same carb here is $109.

But yout tractor is running so consider the increased costs as 'tuition ' for a learning experience.

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Psucivil

12-07-2017 15:38:02




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
thanks Bruce for the information itz pointing me in the right direction. I could not find an adjustable spark tester at any of the local auto parts stores, I could only find the bulb type which I currently have so I ordered one off of amazon and it should be here Saturday.
I got into the distributor and I do not have electronic ingnition but rather the standard points system. I rotated the engine until the distributor was at a point where the points would be open the most and they were less than 0.005" apart with a starett feeler gauge. So I adjusted them to 0.015" and put the distributor back together. The points look to be corroded on the contract surfaces. I will be able to see if the setting the point gap solved the problem tomorrow as I tore the carb apart and it is currently soaking in cleaner. The fuel elbow was pretty dirty and the internals had seen better days.
In regards to the resistor, why are you recommending removing it? Is this due be converted to 12volts? Or you can provide some rational to this?

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erskine2017

12-07-2017 18:49:20




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-07-2017 15:38:02  
Since you have a side mount distributor, the point setting should be .025 instead of .015.



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Bruce (VA)

12-08-2017 07:23:12




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to erskine2017, 12-07-2017 18:49:20  
" the point setting should be .025 instead of .015. "

Yep.

Good catch; I missed that.



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Bruce (VA)

12-07-2017 16:04:40




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-07-2017 15:38:02  
Did you read tip # 30?

It has a resistor because it probably has a 6v coil. Just put a 12v coil on it and remove the resistor.



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nashranch

12-07-2017 11:22:33




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
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Yep that's yer problem.. bypass that resistor and I bet it runs



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Psucivil

12-07-2017 11:13:13




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
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So I removed the air cleaner and the tractor still won't start. I'm beginning to think that I have a weak spark as I pulled the plugs and they have gasoline on them. With new plug wires and ample charge on the battery I am looking at the coil and distributor. As I mentioned it was converted to 12volts but I am not sure if it has been converted to Electronic ignition or not. Is there an easy way to tell without pulling the distributor apart? Also what is the best way to troubleshoot the coil? And lastly in looking over the electrical system I noticed that the resistor above the tool box is in pretty rough shape and the wire terminals coming out of it are loose

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Bruce (VA)

12-07-2017 11:49:59




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-07-2017 11:13:13  
" I have a weak spark as I pulled the plugs and they have gasoline on them."

That's two separate problems.

Replace the plugs. You flooded it, they're fouled & it will be it next to impossible to start. You don't need to toss them; heat the tips for a few seconds w/ a propane torch to burn off the invisible spark-robbing deposits from today's additive filled gasoline........or wash them in brake cleaner.

Next, get out your adjustable gap spark checker * , open the gap to 1/4", hook it up, turn the key on and crank the engine. Does the spark jump 1/4"? Post back with the answers.

" I am not sure if it has been converted to Electronic ignition "

Remove the distributor cap and look inside. Points or EI module?

" I noticed that the resistor above the tool box is in pretty rough shape and the wire terminals coming out of it are loose "

Resistor? Remove it. Hook the two wires together for the moment. Once the tractor is running, replace the coil with a true 12v coil, NAPA part number IC14SB. (see tip # 30) " Also what is the best way to troubleshoot the coil?"

You need to get that resistor out of the circuit before you think about that. And besides, you don't have a coil problem anyway.

And do not buy a new part for the tractor until you can answer this question: how do I know the part on the tractor is defective?

Lastly..........see tip # 30. You really do need a set of manuals.

* Don't own an adjustable gap spark checker? Buy one! Not a test light! Until then, take an old plug, open the gap 1/4" ground it to the head & look for spark. Itís not the color of the spark that counts; itís the distance it jumps.

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Tim PloughNman Daley

12-07-2017 01:48:18




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
The 8N air cleaner has two fine mesh steel screens rolled up inside to trap debris. You need to remove the unit to clean them and the unit properly. The cup mounts up into a groove around the periphery of the base with a cork gasket fitted into it. The cup is secured to the base unit via two toggle clamps 180į apart. If by unclamping them doesn't allow the cup to be removed, it may be dry rotted to the cork from lack of being removed for 50 years or so. Gentle tapping with a soft mallet, rubber or plastic, after spraying some PB BLASTER or Liquid Wrench or Mineral Spirits around the lip might do it. Might even just drop the whole unit in a can of kerosene or diesel fuel or UATF or even gas to try and loosen up the cork seal. Just adding enough to ensure the cup is submerged would be sufficient. Let soak for a few hours minimum. Smacking and prying aren't the answer -just hackmaster technology.

If you have fuel flow and good spark I suspect the root cause is not related to air flow -look elsewhere like wiring. Got EI added? Got your MPC handy? verify plug wires are correct -1,2,4,3 is the correct rotation.

Tim Daley(MI)

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Dollar Bill

12-07-2017 00:36:42




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
See if you can breathe (blow) through the new air filter. There should be no resistance to air flow if the air filter is working properly.



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nashranch

12-06-2017 20:14:29




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
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Thank you Mr T... it was a fun resto and it Sold quickly



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Colin King

12-06-2017 19:53:55




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
The simple answer is yes. Crud can build up, restricting air flow. I've also seen accumulated water in the oil bath that freezes, which will restrict air flow.

Colin, MN



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TomT

12-06-2017 19:41:47




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
Hey, nashranch, That`s one good looking tractor!!



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nashranch

12-06-2017 18:03:01




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
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Did yours look as good as this?



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Psucivil

12-06-2017 17:55:27




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
Haha I'm betting it's a different tractor as I'm in Pennsylvania



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nashranch

12-06-2017 17:49:21




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
I just sold a 1951 Ford 8N Tractor to a guy in Redmond, Oregon. The no oil in the bottom of the air filter rings a bell for some odd reason. Hopefully yer not the guy. If you are sorry bout that and shame on me. I will be sending the guy I sold it too a text message to remind him to check that out



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Psucivil

12-06-2017 16:39:31




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
Before installing the air cleaner I looked inside it and didn't see any packing plugs that needed to be removed prior to installation. I will separate the air tube tomorrow night and see what happens.
I don't think the previous owner did much maintenance to it so it might have run without oil in the old cleaner for quite some time. I wasn't sure if I would have to adjust the idle air mixture screw ornthe carb in general due to the new cleaner

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Psucivil

12-06-2017 16:10:35




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
Before installing the air cleaner I looked inside it and didn't see any packing plugs that needed to be removed prior to installation. I will separate the air tube tomorrow night and see what happens.
I don't think the previous owner did much maintenance to it so it might have run without oil in the old cleaner for quite some time. I wasn't sure if I would have to adjust the idle air mixture screw ornthe carb in general due to the new cleaner

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Bruce (VA)

12-06-2017 16:03:11




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 Re: Air cleaner related starting issues in reply to Psucivil, 12-06-2017 16:01:06  
Disconnect the air filter and see what happens.



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