Avoid these oil pump kits

TheOldHokie

Well-known Member
Location
Myersville, MD
Just received these two kits today - neither one is usable and will be going back to the seller (Reliable Aftermarket Parts). The 9/16" gears were .006/.007 undersize. The 3/4" gears were worse - .012/.013 undersize.

TOH

AtlanticPumpParts.jpg
 
That's a shame. I've bought a lot of parts from those guys because
they are local to me. They have always stood behind what they
sell for me. Unfortunately, they, like other sellers, only sell them.
They don't make them.

Atlantic, A&I, Tisco, I've had trouble with all three on various things.
The local Agco dealer sells A&I, which I understand is owned
by John Deere. They rue selling them, but they feel they have
to sell some aftermarket brand or loose the sales.
 
Our host sells Atlantic Parts. I have gotten some that I have had problems with. Namely R/A shaft seals for 65 up 4,5000. They seep around end of axle hsg. The last Ford ones used had thick cork gskt inside instead of couple rubber strips.
 
(quoted from post at 21:11:46 11/14/17) That's a shame. I've bought a lot of parts from those guys because
they are local to me. They have always stood behind what they
sell for me. Unfortunately, they, like other sellers, only sell them.
They don't make them.

Atlantic, A&I, Tisco, I've had trouble with all three on various things.
The local Agco dealer sells A&I, which I understand is owned
by John Deere. They rue selling them, but they feel they have
to sell some aftermarket brand or loose the sales.
Same here - I have had good success with other things purchased from them. I will call tomorrow and talk to someone about the problem. Hopefully they will TAA and find a source of usable kits. If not they will move to the bottom of my supplier list.

TOH
 
thank you for the awesome effort you have put into making sure our oil pumps are as perfect as they can be...what you do is what made us a great manufacturing country years ago...sadly your one of the few left who knows the true meaning of the word quality
 
(quoted from post at 21:34:36 11/14/17)
(quoted from post at 21:11:46 11/14/17) That's a shame. I've bought a lot of parts from those guys because
they are local to me. They have always stood behind what they
sell for me. Unfortunately, they, like other sellers, only sell them.
They don't make them.

Atlantic, A&I, Tisco, I've had trouble with all three on various things.
The local Agco dealer sells A&I, which I understand is owned
by John Deere. They rue selling them, but they feel they have
to sell some aftermarket brand or loose the sales.
Same here - I have had good success with other things purchased from them. I will call tomorrow and talk to someone about the problem. Hopefully they will TAA and find a source of usable kits. If not they will move to the bottom of my supplier list.

TOH

I spoke with a RAP returns representative this AM. She was not interested in anything other than setting up the refund which she did quite pleasantly and efficiently. So I wrote a NICE letter to go back with the parts explaining in great detail the exact problem and what it was doing to their reputation. I suggested they do [u:f32d321189]something//anything[/u:f32d321189] to rectify the problem and when the do to let folks know that they took proactive action. If I get any indication they follow up on that suggestion I'll let folks know. For now I would advise you don't hold your breath waiting for action and stay away from their APN6600A/B oil pump repair kits ;-)

TOH
 
(quoted from post at 10:35:07 11/15/17)
(quoted from post at 21:34:36 11/14/17)
(quoted from post at 21:11:46 11/14/17) That's a shame. I've bought a lot of parts from those guys because
they are local to me. They have always stood behind what they
sell for me. Unfortunately, they, like other sellers, only sell them.
They don't make them.

Atlantic, A&I, Tisco, I've had trouble with all three on various things.
The local Agco dealer sells A&I, which I understand is owned
by John Deere. They rue selling them, but they feel they have
to sell some aftermarket brand or loose the sales.
Same here - I have had good success with other things purchased from them. I will call tomorrow and talk to someone about the problem. Hopefully they will TAA and find a source of usable kits. If not they will move to the bottom of my supplier list.

TOH

I spoke with a RAP returns representative this AM. She was not interested in anything other than setting up the refund which she did quite pleasantly and efficiently. So I wrote a NICE letter to go back with the parts explaining in great detail the exact problem and what it was doing to their reputation. I suggested they do [u:315b7b796d]something//anything[/u:315b7b796d] to rectify the problem and when the do to let folks know that they took proactive action. If I get any indication they follow up on that suggestion I'll let folks know. For now I would advise you don't hold your breath waiting for action and stay away from their APN6600A/B oil pump repair kits ;-)

TOH
It's an unfortunate state that we are in when it comes to Costomer satisfaction. This perticular issue has cost me a great deal of time, money, and frustration. None of which I have a great deal of.
 
Dan-
Just curious because the gear part numbers are 6610. MPC's show that p/n 52-6610 is the gear used in oil pumps from '39-'50. Then p/n 8N-6610 was released. These are the differences between the 9/16" gear and the 3/4" gear. Where did you find the original specs? Do you have the original drawing? I don't see just the gear being offered as part by the usual suppliers. Though now retired, I still am in contact with the machine tool business, have a buddy with a shop, and do processing/programming for him on the side. One of his customers is a big gear manufacturing supplier in Detroit here and he does a lot of gear blanks for them. It may be possible to get some made exact as original but need a drawing to go by.
 
(quoted from post at 06:47:15 11/16/17) Dan-
Just curious because the gear part numbers are 6610. MPC's show that p/n 52-6610 is the gear used in oil pumps from '39-'50. Then p/n 8N-6610 was released. These are the differences between the 9/16" gear and the 3/4" gear. Where did you find the original specs? Do you have the original drawing? I don't see just the gear being offered as part by the usual suppliers. Though now retired, I still am in contact with the machine tool business, have a buddy with a shop, and do processing/programming for him on the side. One of his customers is a big gear manufacturing supplier in Detroit here and he does a lot of gear blanks for them. It may be possible to get some made exact as original but need a drawing to go by.

All of the gears can be purchased individually. I have the original Ford specs for the pumping gears. They are "unique" in that they are 9 tooth pinions with standard tooth form on an oversize pitch circle. Here is the data for 8N-6612 - 8N-6610 is the same with the exception of the D-hole bore. Presumably 52-6610/52-6612 are simply narrower (.561/.562) versions of the wider gears.

[b:2fc533f83f]Material:[/b:2fc533f83f] SAE 1112 stl. cold drawn Brinell hardness 175-205. Optionally, SAE1112 stl hot rolled machine straightened Brinell hardness 140-170
[b:2fc533f83f]Inner bore:[/b:2fc533f83f] .406/.407
[b:2fc533f83f]Pitch diameter:[/b:2fc533f83f] .833
[b:2fc533f83f]O.D.[/b:2fc533f83f] .997/.998
[b:2fc533f83f]Gear width:[/b:2fc533f83f] .724/.725 ends to be square with bore within .001 T.I.R.

[b:2fc533f83f][u:2fc533f83f]Tooth data[/u:2fc533f83f][/b:2fc533f83f]

[b:2fc533f83f]Pitch:[/b:2fc533f83f] 12
[b:2fc533f83f]No. of teeth:[/b:2fc533f83f] 9
[b:2fc533f83f]Addendum:[/b:2fc533f83f] .0833
[b:2fc533f83f]Depth below pitch line:[/b:2fc533f83f] .1042
[b:2fc533f83f]Whole depth of tooth:[/b:2fc533f83f] .1875
[b:2fc533f83f]Pressure angle:[/b:2fc533f83f] 20 degrees

Must show .003-.006 backlash when meshed with 8N-6610 on .833 centers
Outer tooth tip corner radii .01/.03 R
 

TOH, it is very charitable of you to offer them a means of helping their reputations much. If someone there has any smarts he will source some good ones and send them to you no charge for you to check.
 
I had a problem with a 2 inch exhaust elbow holes drilled of center from rap.they Wanted me to send back and
then send back to manufacturer to see if it was wrong .i had already done some filling on elbow i bout it mine i
should have noticed the holes sooner.i have had good results from many purchases from reliable just not that
one.
 
you are like a surgeon of the n tractor oil pump...it IS the heart of the engine...it keeps it alive....thanks again for all your work
 
HHHMM.. Brinnell is usually reserved for cast iron specs. Steel usually spec'd in Rockwell, but I've seen both on older prints. I can take this info to the gear rep and see what they can do...thanks.

Tim Daley(MI)

PS- I didn't see the gear sold separately in Carpenters catalog but then didn't look anywhere else. Just curious, did you try and see what CNH has in stock? They may have a NOS package on their shelf with the correct gear. I will check with my local CNH dealer too. Will brace myself as to what they'll charge if they do.
 
(quoted from post at 08:02:17 11/17/17) HHHMM.. Brinnell is usually reserved for cast iron specs. Steel usually spec'd in Rockwell, but I've seen both on older prints. I can take this info to the gear rep and see what they can do...thanks.

Tim Daley(MI)

PS- I didn't see the gear sold separately in Carpenters catalog but then didn't look anywhere else. Just curious, did you try and see what CNH has in stock? They may have a NOS package on their shelf with the correct gear. I will check with my local CNH dealer too. Will brace myself as to what they'll charge if they do.

The rebuild kits from Don and Derek are 100% fine - I just ordered three more from them and have no interest in filling CNH's coffers for parts they likely get from the same supplier. Can't say about the kits from this site - have not tried one yet but I will just to see if they are OK. There is a set of NOS Ford 52-xxxx and 9N-6608A gears on eBay right now - selling individually for a total of $63 plus shipping.

The sparse tooth count and oversize pitch circle on the pumping gears necessitate a generating sort of gear cutter (e.g. hob or shaper). They are pumping not mechanical load transmitting gears so undercutting is not a major concern and a gear shop will know how to adjust the generating process to minimize any undercutting that does occur. Also probably going to need a D-hole broach for the 6614 gear. None of that should be a moments concern for a real gear shop but initial tooling costs and low production volumes may make it economically unfeasible.

TOH
 
I should go for walk first to cool down. I will be going on my third kit as soon as it arrives.

First kit came from Reliable was Alantic with under size gears. Refund was pleasantly giving. Reliable's parts my not be up to par but the customer service was the best I experienced in a long time from any company. Got a return label emailed to me and was refunded promptly. Because of this treatment I would consider them for future purchases.

Second set I bought came from Just 8 n because I read they were good kits. Well the gears were spot on perfect. .724.
But the drive shaft was machined so far out of spec that the gear slipped on and off and wiggled on the flat. This was an A & I part. Now I know these people just sell them and can't control QC but when I called I got someone that couldn't make a decision, couldn't ship, couldn't refund and just couldn't do anything for me. I would have to call back in over a week to talk to someone else about my problem. Needless to say I informed them of what extra poor service this was and will be purchasing from someone else.

Third set. So I called our host. (why I didn't in the first place is beyond me. I have bought a lot of parts from them and they are just up the road from me) So I called this time instead of just internet ordering. Got a pleasant informed person who wanted to make sure I got a good part. While on the phone he went and got a kit from inventory, measured the gears, made sure that the driven gear did not just slip onto the d shaft and made sure that was the kit I would be getting. Brand is Tisco. So I know now where I will be buying most my N parts.
I feel better now, think I'll go for a walk...
 
(quoted from post at 17:15:47 03/26/18) I should go for walk first to cool down. I will be going on my third kit as soon as it arrives.

First kit came from Reliable was Alantic with under size gears. Refund was pleasantly giving. Reliable's parts my not be up to par but the customer service was the best I experienced in a long time from any company. Got a return label emailed to me and was refunded promptly. Because of this treatment I would consider them for future purchases.

Second set I bought came from Just 8 n because I read they were good kits. Well the gears were spot on perfect. .724.
But the drive shaft was machined so far out of spec that the gear slipped on and off and wiggled on the flat. This was an A & I part. Now I know these people just sell them and can't control QC but when I called I got someone that couldn't make a decision, couldn't ship, couldn't refund and just couldn't do anything for me. I would have to call back in over a week to talk to someone else about my problem. Needless to say I informed them of what extra poor service this was and will be purchasing from someone else.

Third set. So I called our host. (why I didn't in the first place is beyond me. I have bought a lot of parts from them and they are just up the road from me) So I called this time instead of just internet ordering. Got a pleasant informed person who wanted to make sure I got a good part. While on the phone he went and got a kit from inventory, measured the gears, made sure that the driven gear did not just slip onto the d shaft and made sure that was the kit I would be getting. Brand is Tisco. So I know now where I will be buying most my N parts.
I feel better now, think I'll go for a walk...

Just some more data on the trials and trevails of getting good oil pump kits:[list:8c77e70f35][*:8c77e70f35]Unless you are lucky and get Derek when you call nnalert's whoever regularly answers the telephone is not in charge of anything and can only take and status orders.[*:8c77e70f35]My first oil pump kit order from nnalert's was fulfilled in a timely fashion with a quality Tisco kit as I described above. [*:8c77e70f35]My followup order was fulfilled with three Atlantic kits that were all junk.[*:8c77e70f35]I called nnalert's and got the phone guy who was zero help other than he had me call back in two hours to talk to Derek.[*:8c77e70f35]When I talked to Derek he immediately understood the problem I was describing and said he was previously unaware of the issue. He was out of Tisco kits (probably because the wholesale on the Atlantic ones is a lot lower and he quit ordering from Tisco) but said I should return the defective kits and he would order Tisco replacements for me.[*:8c77e70f35]The first two replacement kits (3/4" gears) arrived in about two weeks - drop shipped directly from Tisco.[*:8c77e70f35]After waiting another couple weeks I called nnalert's and talked to Derek again. He said even Tisco didn't have them at their warehouse and they were still back ordered from Tisco.[*:8c77e70f35]The last kit (9/16" gears) did arrive a few weeks later - also dropped shipped from Tisco[/list:u:8c77e70f35]It was a hassle but nnalert's did everything in their power to get me good Tisco parts and Derek was helpful at all stages. If you have problems with a nnalert order you need to talk to Derek - not he guy he pays to answer phones. That said, if YT is selling Tisco kits and have them in stock to ship they are certainly preferable to waiting weeks on back-orders from Tisco.

TOH
 
OK got the third kit from YT, installed and tractor now has instant oil pressure. was told kit was a Tisco but there was no indication of who made it. Gears were on spec. Driven gear pressed onto d shaft very tight. Only complaint I have with this kit was the input shaft was so rough with machining that I had to chuck in my drill press and polish it smooth. Hopefully it is smooth enough that it wont take out the new bushing.
 
(quoted from post at 21:57:07 03/31/18) OK got the third kit from YT, installed and tractor now has instant oil pressure. was told kit was a Tisco but there was no indication of who made it. Gears were on spec. Driven gear pressed onto d shaft very tight. Only complaint I have with this kit was the input shaft was so rough with machining that I had to chuck in my drill press and polish it smooth. Hopefully it is smooth enough that it wont take out the new bushing.

Here is what I got drop shipped direct from TISCO.

TOH
TISCO_kits.jpg
 

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