52 8n starts, chugs, dies, won't restart...

mrfurrypants

New User
Hi guys,

I got a 1952 12v 8n a couple years ago to brush hog some new land. Initially it ran fantastic. Started right up. Plenty of power. Happily did whatever job I asked. Then one day cutting the field it started to act like it was bogging down in the tall weeds and losing power. I would slow down and it would kinda get along, but after about 30 minutes it started to kinda chug then died. It restarted right away, ran about 10 minutes and died. Restarted again, same thing. I managed to limp it back to the barn and called the guy I bought it from who suggested maybe the coil burned out. Bought a new coil, tractor fired up, ran okayish about 5 minutes, chugged, died. Tried to restart, would not restart. If I try to start it in the morning it will fire and chug terribly for about one minute sputtering black smoke and stinking up a storm, then it dies and will not restart until I try again the next morning. It wasn't long before I found this forum and started digging around trying to learn as much as I could. Maybe not so good at that either.

I put in new motorcraft AL7c plugs, gap at .025. I have good spark on all four plugs.

I pulled the side mount distributor cap. Rotor and contacts look good. Points and condenser look new and clean with a spark if I open it key on.

I have battery voltage at the point pass through with point open key on.

I have okayish fuel flow at the drain plug under the carb, just a little over 2 minutes to fill a pint.

I pulled the carb apart. Everything looks clean and in good shape. I did go ahead and clean it with carb cleaner and blow it out best I could with an air compressor.

Currently, it does the same thing it did before I tried all that. Starts in the morning, chugs terribly for about 1 minute, dies, will not restart.

I really need to get this field cut, but not looking good this year.

What am I overlooking? What did I forget? Help!
 
See tip # 13. You need to check for fuel and
spark as soon as it stops, not 5 minutes
later.

Will the spark jump 1/4" in open air?

What's the point gap?
75 Tips
 
mrfurrypants,You may want to remove and check the carburetor for a gas filled float,or leaking needle valve and seat.Start it with the gas shut off and see if it still chugs black smoke,or runs good till it runs out of gas in the carb bowl.
 
Thanks for the quick response guys! :)

Bruce,
Will one of these adjustable spark testers I see at the parts shop suffice for that open air test? I'm uncertain how to create a 1/4" gap between any point of contact on an old spark plug per tip #13. The side of the plug is far less than that. Won't the spark just jump to there instead? Also, I'm not certain how you got the impression I was waiting 5 minutes to run these tests, but to be certain in the future I will be conducting my trouble shooting tests immediately when the tractor dies and not waiting minutes. If the adjustable spark tester is sufficient I will conduct the 1/4" spark test and check the point gap and report the result tomorrow.

Den,
I didn't notice anything wrong with the float the first time I opened it, and the valve would shut off air flow if it was closed and I tried to blow air through putting my lips to the fuel inlet. I will check again and then conduct your fuel off test and report the result tomorrow.

Thanks for the help guys. back tomorrow.
 
Thinking outside the box here,

If every time you start it up, you still have the air filter hose hooked to carb,

Could be something inside your air filter has stopped up or collapsed, starving the carb for air

If you have been running it, after your repairs with the air filter hose not connected, then the air filter is not the problem,

Is the fuel tank air inlet hole stopped up, this will cause a vacuum in the tank, but again the tractor will normally run 15-30 minutes before the
vacuum stops the flow of fuel to the carb,

I had similar problems, it was a dirty fuel tank, cleaned carb a number of times, but finally had to add an inline (metal housing) fuel filter
between the cutoff valve and the carb, after installation of the fuel filter tractor has run fine,

Also I had the coil go bad, replaced it tractor ran fine,

May have to just start replacing parts, but if you still have a good strong spark when the motor quits, then probably its fuel related,

Be sure to post what you find wrong so others can learn from your experience,
 
Had this very same problem today, turns out, the fuel line was collapsed, and not allowing a good flow of fuel, just a trickle, which would let it
run great for a few minutes, then start chugging and dying, as long as I would throttle black I could move some, but then it would die.
 
sorry for the belated response. sadly i did not get the time i wanted to run all my tests.

Bruce, I did get a chance to check the point gap. It was .018. The hold down screws were not very snug in my opinion, but I did tighten them better after properly setting the gap to .025 per your instructions on another post. I was admittedly anxious and tried the starter and it fired up and ran like a dream. I let it idle about 10 minutes pretty as a picture. Something came up and I had to go, so I shut the gas off, let it die, turned off and removed the key. When I got a chance to try again later it fired right up. I moved it to a better position in the barn. Got called away again. When I came back the 3rd time with the intention of checking some of the previous suggestions I gave it a crank, it chugged over about 5 or 10 times and died. retry, same thing. Confirmed point gap remained firmly at .025. Currently in a barely start, chug, die, wont restart condition.

Next chance I get I will go back to the 1/4" open air plug test and report the result.

thanks everybody for the help
 
I got a chance to conduct the 1/4" open air spark test. Failed on all four plug wires. Same test directly from the coil also failed. I did get a steady open air spark from the coil, but the gap has to be less than 1/8"

Fuel flow still seems okay. No changes cap on or off.

At this point it will not start at all except to spit out a puff or two of smoke, then nothing.
 
tip #13 seems to imply that my tractor will not run because it may lack sufficient spark or fuel.

the fuel flow is steady and constant with the cap on or off.

i was asked if the plugs would spark a 1/4" open air gap. the answer was and still is no. (i read that as 'one quater inch')

the lack of steady strong spark across 1/4" open air gap on the plugs seems to confirm that tip #13 is pointing me in the right direction.

i get a steady strong spark across 1/8" open air directly from the coil wire. the point ignites with spark when opened manually key on. the point does open and close as i advance the cam. the distributor and rotor "appear" to be clean, dry, and in good condition with virtually no deposits or rub marks (the tractor was running fantastic and suddenly got sick.)

do i stop here? is the coil bad? the battery? the alternator? the key?

or is it something between the coil and the plugs?

i lack the expertise to troubleshoot the failed component from this point, short of replacing parts. the avoidance of which was partly why me to come to this forum in the first place. (i guess i'll try plug wires first. goes nice with the new plugs that were suggested elsewhere. lol)

i realize tip #13 is not a repair manual. yes, i WILL buy one asap now that I know how important it is(unashamed newb here).

in the meantime, winter gets here friday and i still haven't gotten that field knocked down.

i'll post back if ever i stumble across the magic part.

thanks
 
Don't start randomly replacing parts. Chances are nothing is broken.

The only thing that's changed since you had it running nicely is the battery has gotten weaker because it hasn't run long enough to recharge. and that's confirmed by the weak spark.

Put your battery on a charger. (see tip # 60)

You need a strong battery to:

1. Close the solenoid

2. Spin the starter

3. Engage the bendix

4. Provide voltage to the coil.

As the battery gets weaker, the first thing to fail is your spark. If the battery is almost totally dead, all you will hear is the solenoid clicking.

In addition to charging the battery, you may need new cables as well (tip # 41). And, don't forget to clean all the grounds, to include the mating area between the starter & the block.

The more current you use to spin the starter, the less you have for the ignition.

While you are waiting for the battery to charge, replace the plugs. If you flooded it, they're fouled & it will be it next to impossible to start. You don't need to toss them; heat the tips for a few seconds w/ a propane torch to burn off the invisible spark-robbing deposits from today's additive filled gasoline........or wash them in brake cleaner.

Once you get the battery charged & have clean plugs, go easy on the choke.

While each N has its own starting sequence, none of them will start well by just yanking out the choke rod & holding it out for 5 or 10 seconds while the engine cranks. This is a gravity fuel system on a low compression engine; it is easily flooded by too much choke.

Try this:

Key on, gas on 2 full turns, clutch in, 3/4 throttle, press the starter button. Let it crank for at least 3 - 4 seconds before you pull the choke rod. Then, don't hold it out for more than 2 or 3 seconds.

If you find out it will not start w/o excessive choking, you have problems.

Finally, after the battery is fully charged & the tractor is running, check your battery. That's tip # 49.

Post back w/ results.
75 Tips
 
could you possibly confirm?

is a spark across 1/8" open air gap directly from the coil wire sufficient fire TO the distributor?

yes or no?

(another post on this forum says it is. (sorry, lost the link))

should it spark across a 1/4" gap from coil wire?

or is the 1/4" gap specific to testing the plugs?
 
the weak spark from the coil is because my battery is low or dead. got it.

i had been using my truck with the engine running to boost the 12V battery in the tractor. apparently this is insufficient for testing the coil.

not cheap, but when i save for a charger and maybe a new battery i will test the spark from the coil again and post results. (may be a little while)

i never needed to use the choke before. at all. i will start messing around with that as suggested, but i keep thinking i'd really like to solve the spark problem.
 
" the weak spark from the coil is because my battery is low or dead."

Yep.

" apparently this is insufficient for testing the coil."

It should be fine. The likely problem is insufficient electrical contact w/ the jumper cables.

Follow the steps in tip 43 for jumping the tractor. Yes, I know you're jumping 12v to 12v, but do it as described in tip # 43.

That should get you enough current to start the tractor.

BTW......

If you own an old tractor, you need a battery charger.

I use float chargers (not trickle chargers) on all my tractors, old cars, etc. Keeps the battery fully charged & gets me 7-8 years life out of the battery.
75 Tips
 
been a few days. other things pop up.

thanks for those tips on the battery charger, etc.

i will follow up with reports as i find time and money to peck away at this.
 
I'm back.

I finally got a charger, charged up the battery, and am satisfied it is in good working order.

Engine started right up and immediately began to behave as originally described. Chugs, dies, won't restart.

Last I recall I was on the "check for 1/4" spark at the coil" test, as it had failed to give me 1/4" spark on the plug wires. I will perform that test with a good fully charged battery and report back with the results.

Sure hope this Bruce guy is still around. /fingers crossed
 
(quoted from post at 08:57:06 09/11/17) I'm back.

I finally got a charger, charged up the battery, and am satisfied it is in good working order.

Engine started right up and immediately began to behave as originally described. Chugs, dies, won't restart.

Last I recall I was on the "check for 1/4" spark at the coil" test, as it had failed to give me 1/4" spark on the plug wires. I will perform that test with a good fully charged battery and report back with the results.

Sure hope this Bruce guy is still around. /fingers crossed


Yep, Bruce guy is still around.

Refresh my memory..........6 volt or 12 volt? Front or side distributor?

As soon as the tractor stops running, not 5 minutes later, check for spark and fuel.

You need to answer 2 questions before you do anything else:
With the bolt in the carb bowl removed and the gas on, will the fuel flow fill a pint jar in less than 2 minutes?

Next, get out your adjustable gap spark checker * , open the gap to 1/4", hook it up, turn the key on and crank the engine. Does the spark jump 1/4"? Post back with the answers.

And do not buy a new part for the tractor until you can answer this question: how do I know the part on the tractor is defective?


* Don't own an adjustable gap spark checker? Buy one! Not a test light! Until then, take an old plug, open the gap 1/4" ground it to the head & look for spark. It’s not the color of the spark that counts; it’s the distance it jumps.
 
12V.
Side mount distributor.

Fuel flow was good on last check. Will retest.

The adjustable gap checker that I bought must be junk. It will only spark rarely regardless of the gap.

I am going to gap an old plug to 1/4" and test again.
 
On my tractor the coil wire does not interface with the spark plug (or the adjustable gape tester) very well. Any tips on how to get my tester to make good contact with the wire and ground?
 
(quoted from post at 14:17:49 09/11/17) On my tractor the coil wire does not interface with the spark plug (or the adjustable gape tester) very well. Any tips on how to get my tester to make good contact with the wire and ground?

Test for spark at the plug. Remove the wire from the plug, attach the gap checker. Or the 1/4" gapped spark plug. To test for the coil sparking, you need to hold the secondary coil wire 1/4" from the block. No plug or plug checker to check the coil.
 
Fuel flow passes the the 2 min. pint test with 10 seconds to spare.

The coil wire easily passes the 1/4" spark test.

Plug wires DO NOT pass the 1/4" spark test.
 

Remove the dist cap hold the coil wire to the center of the rotor button less than 1/4" crank the engine over are manually open and close the points if spark jumps to the rotor button at any time you have a bad rotor button...
 
(quoted from post at 16:31:19 09/13/17)
Remove the dist cap hold the coil wire to the center of the rotor button less than 1/4" crank the engine over are manually open and close the points if spark jumps to the rotor button at any time you have a bad rotor button...

Could you please describe how I might identify the "rotor button"?

When I examine the rotor I see nothing that resembles a button.
 

Generic term for the rotor is rotor button... :shock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tviHsB5LZzo

does yours look like this with the center spring contact still in place. On some applications its EZ to bend them while removing the cap they get lost....

C0NN12200A_Distributor-Rotor-Side-Mount-Distributor_17184.htm


If a rotor gets a burn thru the spark jumps straight the the dist shaft... If you hold the coil wire just off the center of the button and spark jumps the rotor is bad...
 
(quoted from post at 13:18:56 09/15/17)
Generic term for the rotor is rotor button... :shock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tviHsB5LZzo

does yours look like this with the center spring contact still in place. On some applications its EZ to bend them while removing the cap they get lost....

C0NN12200A_Distributor-Rotor-Side-Mount-Distributor_17184.htm


If a rotor gets a burn thru the spark jumps straight the the dist shaft... If you hold the coil wire just off the center of the button and spark jumps the rotor is bad...

In the video, he refers to a "button" located inside the "distributor cap" which is not attached to the "rotor".

My "rotor" is identical to the one in the picture, however, I still fail to observe any "button" on either "rotor".

You said, "Generic term for the rotor is rotor button...". This is causing me a great deal of confusion.

Are you saying to place the coil wire close to the metal part of the "rotor"(as shown in the picture) that contacts the center "button" inside the distributor cap?

Or are you saying to place the coil wire near the center "button" inside the distributor cap (as described in the video)?

Or are you saying a third thing entirely?

The distributor cap and rotor, the coil, the wires, the plugs, and the battery are all brand new. There is zero corrosion, wear, or buildup of any kind on any of these components, so I am very anxious to perform this test properly to confirm the "rotor"/"rotor button" has indeed failed anyway and caused all my troubles.

refresher;
This tractor was running smoothly and very suddenly started to chug, die, and not restart. Currently - starts, chugs, dies, won't restart.
 
(quoted from post at 08:58:53 09/16/17)
(quoted from post at 13:18:56 09/15/17)
Generic term for the rotor is rotor button... :shock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tviHsB5LZzo

does yours look like this with the center spring contact still in place. On some applications its EZ to bend them while removing the cap they get lost....

C0NN12200A_Distributor-Rotor-Side-Mount-Distributor_17184.htm


If a rotor gets a burn thru the spark jumps straight the the dist shaft... If you hold the coil wire just off the center of the button and spark jumps the rotor is bad...

In the video, he refers to a "button" located inside the "distributor cap" which is not attached to the "rotor".

My "rotor" is identical to the one in the picture, however, I still fail to observe any "button" on either "rotor".

You said, "Generic term for the rotor is rotor button...". This is causing me a great deal of confusion.

Are you saying to place the coil wire close to the metal part of the "rotor"(as shown in the picture) that contacts the center "button" inside the distributor cap?

Or are you saying to place the coil wire near the center "button" inside the distributor cap (as described in the video)?

Or are you saying a third thing entirely?

The distributor cap and rotor, the coil, the wires, the plugs, and the battery are all brand new. There is zero corrosion, wear, or buildup of any kind on any of these components, so I am very anxious to perform this test properly to confirm the "rotor"/"rotor button" has indeed failed anyway and caused all my troubles.

refresher;
This tractor was running smoothly and very suddenly started to chug, die, and not restart. Currently - starts, chugs, dies, won't restart.

Has it occurred to you that the distributor caps & rotors in the video are from Chrysler & GM engines? You have an 8N Ford tractor. While the concept of distributor cap & rotor are the same, the design of those components is different.

Your cap does NOT have a button, The center electrode simple contacts the flexible metal arm on your rotor. That carries the coil secondary voltage to the end of the rotor blade where it jumps the small gap to the plug leads in the cap.

So just do exactly what Hobo said.

" Remove the dist cap hold the coil wire to the center of the rotor less than 1/4" crank the engine over are manually open and close the points if spark jumps to the rotor button at any time you have a bad rotor button"

Post back with results.
 
result - no spark

When I place the tip of the coil wire anywhere near any part of the "flexible metal arm" on the rotor, at no time is there ever a spark if I crank the engine with the key in the on position.
 
(quoted from post at 07:46:07 09/18/17) result - no spark

When I place the tip of the coil wire anywhere near any part of the "flexible metal arm" on the rotor, at no time is there ever a spark if I crank the engine with the key in the on position.


Good.

Your rotor is ok.

Confirm that you have voltage to the coil. Battery voltage, points open. About half that if the points are closed.
Do you have battery voltage across the points when they are open? (with the points open, put one probe on one side of the points & the other probe on the opposite side of the points) Verify the gap on the points at .025. Then, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. (I always spray my feeler gauge blade off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts, along w/ the attached copper strip. It's hard to find a short there because it is usually an intermittent . So 'wiggle' the insulator & the copper strip a bit when you are doing your checking. If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all.

If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Insure that the rotor fits firmly on the shaft & that the little clip is there. Make sure the distributor cap is not cracked, doesn’t have gouges in it from the rotor or brass shavings & doesn't have carbon tracks. Check continuity on the secondary coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. Next, remove the secondary coil wire from the center of the distributor cap, turn the key on & crank the engine while holding the end of the wire 1/4" from a rust & paint free spot on the engine. You should see & hear a nice blue/white spark. If not, you have a bad coil or condenser. Just put the old condenser back in to eliminate that as a possibility.

Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was.
 
(quoted from post at 09:43:03 09/18/17)

Good.

Your rotor is ok.

Confirm that you have voltage to the coil. Battery voltage, points open. About half that if the points are closed.
Do you have battery voltage across the points when they are open? (with the points open, put one probe on one side of the points & the other probe on the opposite side of the points) Verify the gap on the points at .025. Then, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. (I always spray my feeler gauge blade off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts, along w/ the attached copper strip. It's hard to find a short there because it is usually an intermittent . So 'wiggle' the insulator & the copper strip a bit when you are doing your checking. If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all.

If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Insure that the rotor fits firmly on the shaft & that the little clip is there. Make sure the distributor cap is not cracked, doesn’t have gouges in it from the rotor or brass shavings & doesn't have carbon tracks. Check continuity on the secondary coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. Next, remove the secondary coil wire from the center of the distributor cap, turn the key on & crank the engine while holding the end of the wire 1/4" from a rust & paint free spot on the engine. You should see & hear a nice blue/white spark. If not, you have a bad coil or condenser. Just put the old condenser back in to eliminate that as a possibility.

Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was.

"Confirm that you have voltage to the coil. Battery voltage, points open."
result - YES

"Do you have battery voltage across the points when they are open?"
result- YES

"Verify the gap on the points at .025."
result - YES

"Then, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them."
result - DONE

"Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor."
result - YES. I think. I'm not certain if I performed this test corectly. Leaving one probe on the stationary side of the points from the previous test, I moved the other probe to the wire connector on the outside of the distributor. While reading solid battery voltage, I wiggled the insulator post, the wires inside and outside the distrbutor, and the copper strip inside. Voltage remained consistant. I may need better instruction on performing this particular test.

"Insure that the rotor fits firmly on the shaft & that the little clip is there."
result - YES and YES

"Make sure the distributor cap is not cracked, doesn’t have gouges in it from the rotor or brass shavings & doesn't have carbon tracks."
result - Clean and new looking. No buildup, corrosion, or wear.

"Check continuity on the secondary coil wire"
result - YES

"Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil."
result - YES. Both ends click snugly into place.

"Next, remove the secondary coil wire from the center of the distributor cap, turn the key on & crank the engine while holding the end of the wire 1/4" from a rust & paint free spot on the engine. You should see & hear a nice blue/white spark."
result - YES. There is very solid and consistant spark that easily leaps the 1/4" gap.

"Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was." - heh, me too.

When I attempt the same 1/4" spark test on the spark plug wires, the spark will infact jump the 1/4" gap, however it is very inconsistant and seems to not be able to leap even smaller gaps on occasion.
 
I'm sorry fellas. I cannot decipher what it is I'm overlooking. I get the impression my lack of expertise is an annoyance. Sorry to have wasted everyone's time.
 
(quoted from post at 13:53:30 09/28/17) I'm sorry fellas. I cannot decipher what it is I'm overlooking. I get the impression my lack of expertise is an annoyance. Sorry to have wasted everyone's time.

Do not give up; just keep trying. It could be something simple as the ignition wire to the coil is sometimes being grounded because of defective insulation, or poor contact on electrical connections that need to be cleaned. There are more connections that you think. You have been given good advise and you have learned a lot. Keep trying. You know more about it today than when you started.
On one of my front mount distributer it would only crank after the starter button was released and the engine was still turning. It didn't have enough voltage with the starter engaged to fire the plugs. On another front mount it would crank up and start with one plug removed to test the 1/4" gap, but was slow to crank up most of the time with all four plugs installed. Until I found that the battery had to be FULLY charged.
 
(quoted from post at 11:53:30 09/28/17) I'm sorry fellas. I cannot decipher what it is I'm overlooking. I get the impression my lack of expertise is an annoyance. Sorry to have wasted everyone's time.

i'll second what copperhead said. hang in there. if [i:ecde9a66f0]your[/i:ecde9a66f0] lack of expertise is an annoyance, then people like me would have been tracked down and killed ages ago ;)

it sure sounds to me like the problem is in the distributor. but, unfortunately, i have no knowledge to share with u there. with occasional exceptions, the distributor is like the places at the edge of old maps to me - here be monsters :oops:
 
(quoted from post at 07:53:30 09/28/17) I'm sorry fellas. I cannot decipher what it is I'm overlooking. I get the impression my lack of expertise is an annoyance. Sorry to have wasted everyone's time.

Don't give up.

The most common cause of a weak spark is a weak battery.

Put it on a charger; see top # 60.

Have you tried pull starting it?6
 

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