Anyone try starter that engages from front, not back?

Has anyone tried the starter that engages from the front, not back, of flywheel? (It is made in Utah and described as "12 Volt Ford Tractor Gear Reduction Mini Starter.")

My 1951 8N won't let starters engage. They just spin. Background: 12-volt conversion; tried two starters with three different Bendixes; both starters work normally in another tractor, as do the cables; connections are clean; multimeter shows similar readings on both tractors when sitting and cranking. I have moved the flywheel ahead literally a couple of teeth at a time with a hand crank with the same result. Teeth on flywheel have some slightly sharp edges on the engagement side but are not chipped, chewed up, deeply worn or missing. But when I shim the starter out about 3/16th-inch with washers on the two mounting bolts the engine cranks wonderfully. That obviously shows the Bendix isn't engaging the flywheel unless shimmed.

Considering the result with two starters that work fine on one tractor, not on the other, I don't know what to conclude other than a flywheel that looks OK but isn't. Since no teeth are missing or excessively worn, I'm considering one of the mini starters. The cost (about $60 more than a regular starter) would be worth it if I could avoid splitting the tractor to replace the flywheel or cobbling the starter with shims. So... have you had experience with these "from the front" starters vs. the originals that engage from the back of the flywheel? I'm interested in your experiences as I weigh my options. Thanks for any input.
 
(quoted from post at 10:37:05 07/14/17) Has anyone tried the starter that engages from the front, not back, of flywheel? (It is made in Utah and described as "12 Volt Ford Tractor Gear Reduction Mini Starter.")

My 1951 8N won't let starters engage. They just spin. Background: 12-volt conversion; tried two starters with three different Bendixes; both starters work normally in another tractor, as do the cables; connections are clean; multimeter shows similar readings on both tractors when sitting and cranking. I have moved the flywheel ahead literally a couple of teeth at a time with a hand crank with the same result. Teeth on flywheel have some slightly sharp edges on the engagement side but are not chipped, chewed up, deeply worn or missing. But when I shim the starter out about 3/16th-inch with washers on the two mounting bolts the engine cranks wonderfully. That obviously shows the Bendix isn't engaging the flywheel unless shimmed.

Considering the result with two starters that work fine on one tractor, not on the other, I don't know what to conclude other than a flywheel that looks OK but isn't. Since no teeth are missing or excessively worn, I'm considering one of the mini starters. The cost (about $60 more than a regular starter) would be worth it if I could avoid splitting the tractor to replace the flywheel or cobbling the starter with shims. So... have you had experience with these "from the front" starters vs. the originals that engage from the back of the flywheel? I'm interested in your experiences as I weigh my options. Thanks for any input.

I have not but the Denso gear reduction retrofits are very popular on a variety of older cars and trucks. The get very favorable reviews from the folks that have used them. Should I ever need to replace the starter on either of my N's the extra $60 would be a total non-issue....

TOH
 

So wear down the front of the teeth and then split to replace the ring gear. You might get enough time out of them to make it worth it. I do hear good things about them.
let us know how it works oust for you.
 
Rossow,I have one on a 2N and it works great!but it also has a new ring gear.I just wanted a new style gear reduction starter.It should work even if half of the ring gear teeth are missing.Have you checked your drive location on the starter shaft?some bendix drives need a closer hole to the starter drilled in the shaft for the pin.That may be all you need to do to fix yours.Do some accurate measurements from the starter mount flange on the clutch housing to the back side of the ring gear,then the starter end cap to the un retracted bendix drive gear add 3/16"-1/4" for clearance.
s-l1600.jpg
 
" But when I shim the starter out about 3/16th-inch with washers on the two mounting bolts the engine cranks wonderfully."

And the problem with doing that is .......?????
75 Tips
 
(quoted from post at 09:31:36 07/14/17) " But when I shim the starter out about 3/16th-inch with washers on the two mounting bolts the engine cranks wonderfully."

And the problem with doing that is .......?????
75 Tips

my thoughts, too. if shimming works, why buy another starter?

wally
 
So if shimming the starter out lets it engage, OK, but perhaps the AMOUNT of engagement is still marginal.. marginal engagement equals short life. My other thoughts: Frankly, splitting a Ford N isn't a big deal... and I'm wondering if the flywheel is the proper one for the N.
Good Luck!
 
But I've tried three different Bendixes on two different starters, and everything works perfectly on one tractor but not on another. That's why I have to suspect the flywheel itself.
 
Flywheel is the one that worked for years on the tractor, so I don't think it could be incorrect for the tractor. As far as splitting, it's in this tractor's future, but I don't have a good indoor space to work on a split right now, and I'm not up to doing a split on gravel under an open sky. I need to clear out some old cars to make inside space on concrete.
 
Am I safe in just shimming and living with "farmerizing"? Any risk in damaging something with fairly thick shimming? This tractor has a belly mower and only gets used maybe 10 hours a summer, so a shim fix would be quite handy.
 
(quoted from post at 14:00:09 07/14/17) Am I safe in just shimming and living with "farmerizing"? Any risk in damaging something with fairly thick shimming? This tractor has a belly mower and only gets used maybe 10 hours a summer, so a shim fix would be quite handy.

You've got a bad ring gear. Shim out the starter & be done with it. When you get the time & energy, replace the ring gear.
 
(quoted from post at 03:00:09 07/15/17) Am I safe in just shimming and living with "farmerizing"? Any risk in damaging something with fairly thick shimming? This tractor has a belly mower and only gets used maybe 10 hours a summer, so a shim fix would be quite handy.

I would not go there unless I could make a shim that completely covered the end of the drive housing and gave the same support as with no shim. Lots of starters are shimmed if done correctly they live a long health life. If done wrong whats the worst it could do break the block maybe...

A Denso starter is pert near plug and play with a 99.9% chance of a long term fix.. One advantage a Denso has is the drive is well on its way into the teeth of the ring gear before the starter motor energizes. Its a very rare event to see a flywheel with any ware were they are used...
 
Hobo, your comment reflects my concern -- getting a shim that covers the whole mounting surface. I don't have the facilities (other than drill press, band saw and files!) to create such a shim, and I don't think any factory-made ones exist. I wouldn't want to bust the block around the starter by having the starter contacting the block only at the two mounting bolts. Maybe I'd be OK, and maybe I'm being paranoid and could get by with no harm, but I'm not sure I can summon up the courage to take a chance.

(The block in this tractor has the infamous water-jacket crack near the petcock; it seeps a little from a partial weld repair in a previous life. No big deal, but I do have a magnafluxed block for an eventual replacement. In the meantime, I'll either go with scary shimming or with a Denso starter.)

Thanks to all you guys for sharing ideas about my problem. It helps me to consider my options.
 

I don't see a problem making shims out of tin/beer can as far as that goes...
They don't exactly need to be precision stamped.
 
I've done the Denso conversion on one of the 8Ns I service. It has worked out very well. The backside of the flywheel teeth were badly worn and I was able to avoid a split and ring gear replacement. If you price out just the parts for an "original" starter replacement, and include the ring gear and new solenoid, then the Denso is $$ ahead. I have not had good luck with replacement original type starters, and the solenoids are poorly made, even with the Echlin name. If you do the Denso conversion, plan to buy (or scrounge from an older car) a small Bosch type relay and a relay socket. You can easily build a starter button circuit which maintains the full safety function of the tranny start button.

Paul in MN
 
O'Reilly sells starter shims. So does NAPA. Or cut down beer cans like Hobo said. There are even YouTube video's on the subject. This isn't like shimming a main bearing on an old car.
75 Tips
 
Hobo, you're exactly right. I was dwelling on a neat-looking machined type of one-piece aluminum shim, but even I, with limited machining equipment, could trim out several pieces of 1/6th-inch metal to stack as needed. Easy to rough out with a saber saw and clean up with a die grinder. I think I'll try that route first. Thanks for your input.
 

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