Frustrated after overhaul

Hello all, I'm really frustrated this spring trying to get my 2N to run right after an engine rebuild. Here are the relevant details:

-Major engine rebuild in January completed by a very reputable engine shop with experience on flat heads.

-While I was putting it all back together I decided to replace many engine related components with new at the same time since their age was in question- governor, water pump, carb., fuel strainer, all ignition components including plugs, wires, points, rotor, dist. cap, condenser, coil, ballast resistor, battery, new ignition housing/ cam assy. Did not replace alternator and starter which were already nearly new.

-Just for grins I double checked compression- all cylinders pushing 120 lbs.

- Valve clearances set

-firing order/plug wire/distributor order checked about 10 times.

-Engine hesitates on acceleration and backfires routinely and gets worse/weaker the longer I run it.

The only thing I can think it might be is that the cam and crank gears could be 1 tooth off but I'm not convinced since the problem does wax and wane at least somewhat.

I got so frustrated that I took the tractor to a local tractor shop with an older man who knows these relatively well- thus far he's stumped.

What else should I check?

condenser

Just something to try that may be the culprit. You said in your post that you replaced the govonor.... First did you adjust it and second if you did try swapping it out with the old govonor and see if it runs better.

The new replacement govonors are notorious for causing a whole slew of poor engine running scenarios... It's better to rebuild the old one than replace with new.

Give it a try and report back
Good luck

Kurt........ref yer compression readings; Ford specs 90-psi MINIMUM; good runnin N-Engines about 110-psi; brandy new rebuilt engines about 125-psi. So yer compression of 120-psi is goot to go. As fer yer sparkin' and backfirin', while it could be ignition related (and probably is) lets make certain yer carbie is adjusted correctly. Set the down-pointing mainjet to 2-turns and LEAVITT!!! Adjust the side-pointing idlemix fer FASTEST idle, NOT SMOOTHEST idle. Understand the difference??? Usually about 1/8-1/4-turn. Remember the idlemix is BASS-ACKWARDS; out fer lean, IN fer ENRICH. As fer yer ignition; the points (0.015) are designed to be replaced on the kitchen table (really) Just un-snapple yer capple, and letter dangle. Un-bolt the 2-bolts and walk. Replace the points (0.015) and stick the corner of $1-bill (cheap) between the points and PULL. POLISH the INVISIBLE CORROSION from between the points (0.015) Now re-bolt yer dizzy but NOT TITE. Put the rotor on the dizzy and rotate it until the OFF-SET tang fits the OFF-SET slot in camshaft. Now tighten yer 2-bolts and re-snapple yer capple. Simple, eh? As fer yer weird ignition coil, it don't like to gitt HOT. Its usually good fer about 1-hr before it gitts too HOT. A clever mechanic could make a heat-shield outta cardboard (?) or alumnium foil to keep the fan from blowing HOT RADIATOR air on the coil. One last sparkie comment, when I replaced the sparkie wires on my eazy starting 6-volt 8N, my 9-yo son did itt. (with adult supervision) I gotta COPPER CORE set from HOT-ROD shop fer Chevy V-8 with right-angle booties to fit under the gastank. Cut to length. Good sparkie wire should be limp as a wet noodle........HTH, Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

It's not cam timing.

It's most likely ignition.

Dean

The condenser, timing and advance weights.
75 Tips

Yep. My recent tune up had the same problem. Napa sells a decent one. If your using one that came in an ign parts kit, need I say more?

Just got back around to working on this. Removed newly installed governor and went with another one in better condition but same operational result. Tractor runs very hot now too with either governor. Thanks for the suggestion however-

One component at a time I Replaced governor, condenser, and put an older (known good from last season) carb on- no changes.

Last time I had it fired up it got really hot really fast now as well. My only suspicion is the timing perhaps there were two marks on either the crank or cam gear and the shop timed the wrong one.

My shop told me that there were two timing marks on some of the camshaft gears- one for magneto engines and one for points engines and he thinks the overhaul shop chose the wrong one- can anyone here confirm or refute that?

(quoted from post at 07:05:43 06/24/17) My shop told me that there were two timing marks on some of the camshaft gears- one for magneto engines and one for points engines and he thinks the overhaul shop chose the wrong one- can anyone here confirm or refute that?

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I should also say that after I replaced the condenser the tractor started well and ran fine briefly until it started to get really hot really fast boiling the coolant overboard. Starting to think I need an exorcist

(quoted from post at 02:18:39 06/24/17)

(quoted from post at 07:05:43 06/24/17) My shop told me that there were two timing marks on some of the camshaft gears- one for magneto engines and one for points engines and he thinks the overhaul shop chose the wrong one- can anyone here confirm or refute that?

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I should also say that after I replaced the condenser the tractor started well and ran fine briefly until it started to get really hot really fast boiling the coolant overboard. Starting to think I need an exorcist

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Cam & crank timing is different than ignition timing. Late (or retarded) ignition timing will make an engine run hot, and do it pretty quickly. The exhaust valves need to be closed when combustion happens. If ignition timing is too late the exaust valve will be opening. This puts combustion pressures & temperattures directly out the manifold. This gets an engine way too hot, and it does it fast. Carefully check your ignition timing.

One way to check cam & crank timing without opening up the engine or to check without gear timing marks is to observe the valves. Now on a flat head you would have to settle for observing the valves through the tappet covers, but this will work fine. Put your number 1 cylinder exactly on TDC of compression stroke. using a hand crank, a wrench, the fan belt, whatever means possible, rock the engine forward and backward slightly each way from TDC while watching your valves. You may want to remove the spark plugs to make this easier. You also may need a helper to do this. If the cam and crank are timed together correctly, the valve on cylinder number 4 (which should both be closed) will rock back and forth. In other words when rotating the engine slightly in one direction, one of the valves on cylinder 4 will just begin to open. When rotating the engine slightly in the other direction, the other valve on cylinder 4 will just begin to open. If this happens, your cam & crank are timed together correctly.

Engine hesitates on acceleration and backfires routinely

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You may be running too lean. Open up the main jet some.

and gets worse/weaker the longer I run it.

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Try a known good coil.

Thanks Jim will give those a try. Do you know off hand if engines with
Magnetos vs. engines with points had the cam gear marked any
differently? I can't see why they would but I'm not sure. One thought
was that we got a hold of an older cam somewhere along the line with
this tractor and the gear had both mark and the overhaul shop chose
the wrong one..

(quoted from post at 11:55:00 06/25/17) Thanks Jim will give those a try. Do you know off hand if engines with
Magnetos vs. engines with points had the cam gear marked any
differently? I can't see why they would but I'm not sure. One thought
was that we got a hold of an older cam somewhere along the line with
this tractor and the gear had both mark and the overhaul shop chose
the wrong one..

Click to expand...

'm not Jim, but I say no.

I overhauled an industrial engine that came in my 8n and it had only one set of marks, Sure do like the magneto.

(quoted from post at 11:55:00 06/25/17) Thanks Jim will give those a try. Do you know off hand if engines with
Magnetos vs. engines with points had the cam gear marked any
differently? I can't see why they would but I'm not sure. One thought
was that we got a hold of an older cam somewhere along the line with
this tractor and the gear had both mark and the overhaul shop chose
the wrong one..

Click to expand...

I'm with JMOR on this one. At least I've never heard of it. I've rebuilt a lot of tractor engines and have never seen it, or can't imagine why the cam and crank timing would be anything other than one way whether it's a magneto or a points ignition.

Now some engines, such as an International C60 (farmall cub) Has several marks on the crank gear. One to line up with the cam gear and a second set of marks to line up with an Idler gear. The idler gear also has two marks, one for the crank gear and one for the governor drive gear, as this also drives the Magneto or distributor and must be timed correctly. All these marks only line up one way correctly. Usually a single mark to a single mark and a double mark to a double mark. If the marks were lined up to the wrong corresponding mark, I can't imagine the engine would even run. Come to think of it, I don't think you could even set all the marks incorrectly. Don't confuse any of this with you engine. None of this applies to your engine.

Major engine rebuild in January completed by a very reputable engine shop with experience on flat heads.

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(quoted from post at 02:05:43 06/24/17) My shop told me that there were two timing marks on some of the camshaft gears- one for magneto engines and one for points engines and he thinks the overhaul shop chose the wrong one- can anyone here confirm or refute that?

Click to expand...

Ask them what the heck there talking about. They would be the one to confirm what they said.

Each valve must open and close at precisely the correct time in regards to where the piston is. This is cam & crank timing. This should be the same no matter how the spark for ignition is provided. Now spark must happen at the correct time in regards to all of that. This is ignition timing. This can, and will usually be, set differently between magnetos and battery ignition units.

June 11 until June 26.........haven't seen any indication that timing has been checked yet! Still pressing the unknown, mysterious, elusive "other" timing gear marks that will never be found.

Timing has definitely been checked and re-checked by at least two mechanics early on-

(quoted from post at 16:05:56 06/27/17) Timing has definitely been checked and re-checked by at least two mechanics early on-

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could it be a bad head gasket? it might not be overheating but filling the water jacket with combustion gas

Thx. I really hope not since it has less than 10 hours on the overhaul but will definitely look at that as a possiblity--

I have run an 8N for up to twenty minutes at fully retarded and fully advanced timing while troubleshooting an electronic ignition module. The engine temp never varied during various throttle positions.
You didn't list a new thermostat in all the parts you replaced. If it's overheating and boiling really fast, the t-start may be malfunctioning. Since the engine has a recent rebuild by a reputable company, I wouldn't immediately suspect the head gasket or warped head. If the overheating is occurring at high engine speeds, check the bottom radiator hose to see if it is collapsing. If yes, get a hose with an internal steel support coil.
Hope this helps.
Cheers everyone.