8n won't turnover

TomD

Member
8n front mount dist. (1948 I believe) with previous cobbled 12v conversion by previous owner. I have looked over a couple of JMOR's 8n wiring diagrams and what I have does not follow anything I see.
Was running good until I probably burned points/coil more than likely. Key on while jumper cables were attached and charging from running lawn tractor.
It will not turn over even if jumping and even if jumping directly to starter lug and ground. Generally if the battery was charged it started well and ran fine. Now that I managed to jack it up I figure it might be the appropriate time to make the wiring right. It is very poorly wired right now.

I am considering getting a new wiring harness and making everything correct as a starting point. I believe it has a 6v coil presently and it still has a long white ceramic resistor behind the dash that is in use.
Wondering that if I do the wiring harness and get the correct resistor block and a 12v coil would that be a good direction to go. As it won't even crank I am kind of scratching my head at the moment..

I have cleaned up some of the connections but have some more to go. Starter button (oem type) is loose and needs tightening. could that be causing a poor ground issue?
I want to clean the batt ground cable connection where it connects to the body and the area where the starter is mounted still.

I am no expert when it comes to electrical that is for sure.. I do have circuit tester , multimeter, sparkplug tester for troubleshooting.. and I have time...lol

Any thought on where I should begin are appreciated..
.
 

Some will to make your own wiring harness, I order mine from this site.
You should have an OEM ballast resistor behind the dash, even if you do with a 12 volt coil, which is what I would do. 6 volt coil would require a resistor in the wire going to the coil.

Not cranking at all__ clean all battery terminals and where the ground cable attaches to frame. The small wire going to the OEM starter button provides ground to engage the starter solenoid, easy to check with screw driver, ground the wire.

If still nothing, use a jumper cable and jump from one large solenoid terminal to the other, MAKE SUre TRACTOR IS OUT OF GEAR. iF BATTERY IS GOOD AND THE STARTER IS GOOD IT SHOULD ENGAGE THE STARTer. If not the starter is bad, if it does engage the starter the solenoid is bad.

It sounds like you are headed in the correct direction.

Keep it safe!!
 

I did jump from large solenoid to the other and nothing but sparks happen.. The starter does nothing..

I'll clean up the rest of the contacts and see if I can make any progress..
 

i'd put the wiring harness on the back burner for the moment. once u get the starter problem sorted, then tear the harness out and replace it. JMOR is the man. just be sure u match the right diagram for your situation. you've got an early 8N, 12 volts - 1 or 3 wire alternator?
 
You know I have looked at the alternator and googled 1 wire / 3 wire alt's .. I have never found a pic of the back side of a 1 wire..
Mine has a large lug for the + and a ground bolt and the 2 smaller connections (1 & 2) on the outer edge. They are currently wired into the circuit.. one just hops over to the main lug and the other I don;t at this second remember where it goes or comes from...
Is it a 3 wire? I don't really know , it looks like any alternator I have ever used on an older pick up truck or car.. Think it's a Delco..
 

yep, you've got a 3 wire. i've got a 1 wire, it has a blank black cover snapped in where yours has the 2 wire connector, and just the one big output wire off the back.
 

seeems to me i've read that a one wire is just a three wire that's been converted, and the other 2 wires have been replaced by two jars' worth of lucas wiring harness smoke.

Smokekit2.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 19:48:55 06/19/17)
seeems to me i've read that a one wire is just a three wire that's been converted, and the other 2 wires have been replaced by two jars' worth of lucas wiring harness smoke.

Smokekit2.jpg

My sister had a Triumph Spitfire MK4 back in the day.. I distinctly remember you had better never leave home without a tool box in the boot with that one.. But it was fun...
 
(quoted from post at 16:44:40 06/19/17)
I did jump from large solenoid to the other and nothing but sparks happen.. The starter does nothing..

I'll clean up the rest of the contacts and see if I can make any progress..
I would take the starter to mom and pop starter/generator repair shop and have it checked out.
 

"It will not turn over even if jumping and even if jumping directly to starter lug and ground. "
Given that, don't even worry about the wiring. Fix the starter motor & then move on to the other things, IF they are even a problem at that point.
 
Tom.........cupple of things jump out. 1) 6-volt positive (+) or 12-volt negative (-) starter motor ALWAYS turns the correct direction to start yer N-Engine. The BIG thumb switch by the tranny shifter is GROUND. So yeah, a LOOSE thumb switch is NOT GOOD. The weird 4-nipple square can dizzy ALWAYS needs the points (0.015) set. Clamp a $1-bill (cheap) between the points and PULL. Clean the INVISIBILE CORROSION from between the points. 2) I HATE resistors. The infamous ballast resistor was Fords trick fer WEAK 6-volt batterys. Gave HOT SPARKIES when trying to start the COLD engine. Today ya gotts DIE-HARDS. But remember, unlike 12-volt alternators, 6-volt gennys don't charge at idle. So the drill is...1/3-throttle, ignition switch ON, 2-rumpa-rumpas on the starter motor and a QUICK PULL on the spring loaded choke shuld gittcha started........HTH, the amazed Dell and self-appointed sparkie-meister
 
I just so happened to be reading one of your post that said this.

as a general rule, the 8N's starter solenoid is bulletproof. But when you see a spark (usually a loose connector) and a puff of smoke, guess what??? The starter solenoid has done bitt the dust.

Last time I cranked it I had the door to the batt comp open and twice saw a pretty large spark flash down around the solenoid. Does look a little rough.. It is not fastened tightly to the starter either.. rusty loose attaching screws..
49843.jpg
 
#1 and #2 connections on edge plug of your alternator are reversed. #2 should loop down to output stud, #1 should go through a diode, indicator lamp, or resistor to output of ignition switch. Output should go to one side of ammeter

Keep the 3 wire alternator and do yourself a big favor. Go to an autopart store and get a connector plug for the 2 pin edge connector, it only goes on one way. That way if removed you shouldn't get confused as to which way it goes back on.

Correctly wiring with fresh wire will cure a multitude of present and future problems.
 

Thanks for that info Virgil..
I've been cleaning up some connections today, pulled the shifter plate and cleaned up and tightened the starter button which was loose, replaced the solenoid which was cracked and had arched last couple of times I cranked it.. wire brushed all connections there.. Taking a break Its hot today and tractor is out in the full sun.. lol.. Be nice to be under a shade tree..
 
OK.. man it's hot today..
I'm progressing here. Working my way up to pulling the starter..

I have cleaned up all the grounds and connections in the system, except for where the starter mates to the body.. Replaced that cracked solenoid. I did swap those wires on the alternator that Virgil pointed out..
For grins I turned on the key and pressed the starter button.. Got a series of clicks , the batt is low but I knew that.. Jumped it from my car and it would give me one click out of the solenoid.
Rocked the tractor back and forth in gear for the heck of it.. No change.

Thinking it's time to pull the starter as suggested by those in the know. I better get a couple of nuts I guess. Don't want the starter coming apart..
 

EVERY reply just plan CHUCHS except for JMOR's.
I will admit I just skimmed over the usual B.S. that's normally posted... Bad habit I know BUT WTF get it in gear are STFU....

The post title iZZZZZZZZZZ

8n won't turnover (Won't Crank is my take)

Just encase it wuzzzzzzzzzz missed.....
 
Success!

Got my starter back from being rebuilt, installed it and put in a fresh set of points and with a jump , battery is low, she fired right off..
Ran it for about 15 minutes didn't miss a beat..
Only thing is when I turned the key off it would not shut down.. So I put it in 4th and eased out on the clutch to kill it...

Not sure why that would happen...

As it is very hot here in Southern Missouri I'm going to let her sit till in the morning then we'll see if she will keep working..
 

As for it wouldn't shut down with the key...

I had changed the wires going to the alternator side plugs around as someone pointed out from my photos that they were wired wrong... I just changed them back to the original wrong way and now it shuts down when the key is turned off..lol.. what the hey...

I am thinking we have a tractor that is not exactly done the right way, but maybe we will just live with it as long as it does work..

As I said in the beginning , I am no electrician wizard, when someone starts going into the craft lingo my eyes glaze over..
 
(quoted from post at 17:07:30 07/22/17)
As for it wouldn't shut down with the key...

I had changed the wires going to the alternator side plugs around as someone pointed out from my photos that they were wired wrong... I just changed them back to the original wrong way and now it shuts down when the key is turned off..lol.. what the hey...

I am thinking we have a tractor that is not exactly done the right way, but maybe we will just live with it as long as it does work..

As I said in the beginning , I am no electrician wizard, when someone starts going into the craft lingo my eyes glaze over..
t should be draining your battery connected that way. You can verify by removing battery cable and connecting an ammeter between battery terminal and the removed cable. Or use a small low wattage bulb in place of suggested ammeter & if the drain is present, the bulb will glow and the cable may even make a small spark when re attached.
 
Humm..
JMOR,
I will check this tomorrow... How would I go about correcting this issue..
I know this tractor is not wired per any of the diagrams I have seen here.. Tomorrow I will make a diagram of how it is wired for comparison..

It was converted to 12v by someone, but still has a ceramic resistor as pictured behind the dash and will only run right with a 6v coil as it is now. When we had a 12v coil it would backfire continuously. Doing nothing else but swapping to a 6v coil and that problem went away. Runs fine.
If it continuously drains the batt that is no good..
Is there a fix ?
 
(quoted from post at 21:25:01 07/22/17) Humm..
JMOR,
I will check this tomorrow... How would I go about correcting this issue..
I know this tractor is not wired per any of the diagrams I have seen here.. Tomorrow I will make a diagram of how it is wired for comparison..

It was converted to 12v by someone, but still has a ceramic resistor as pictured behind the dash and will only run right with a 6v coil as it is now. When we had a 12v coil it would backfire continuously. Doing nothing else but swapping to a 6v coil and that problem went away. Runs fine.
If it continuously drains the batt that is no good..
Is there a fix ?
o point in throwing out the usual speculations & "I had this experience", etc. Find out first what is in the wiring path of the wire off the alternator spade terminal. Trace it all the way to other end. Obviously, I mean the one that isn't looped back to output stud. I will help you from there.
 
Tom,

Take off the starter band and have a look at the brushes and commutator.
The rust on that scar on the starter looks like if you chip hammered it you'd go right through . . . so maybe it is seriously rusty on the inside wall and armature.

I just inspected my 6V generator. Last time I serviced it was '98.
Bearings good, lots of brush left. Spun the pulley with a wire wheel on a drill so that the rusty pulley would be cleaned up, while I cleaned up the spinning commutator by holding things against it ending with a small wire brush.

I always seal those windows well before putting the band back on. This last time I used some heavy paper. Duct tape works well but don't stretch it so tight that it dips down in the brush access windows.

I know, yours is a starter.
Somebody stop me! :D

How can you tell I love my old GM Generators.
913.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 21:33:23 07/22/17)
(quoted from post at 21:25:01 07/22/17) Humm..
JMOR,
Find out first what is in the wiring path of the wire off the alternator spade terminal. Trace it all the way to other end. Obviously, I mean the one that isn't looped back to output stud. I will help you from there.

JMOR, here is what I see..
Tracing wire off #2 alt spade connection it goes back to the switched side of the key with a split going to the ceramic resistor as well.

here is my main wire paths.

From the key switch:
Hot side to + main lug on solenoid.
switched side to #2 spade on Alt with split to ceramic resistor.

Ammeter: to + post on battery.
to batt lug on Alternator.

Start button: To small stud backside of solenoid.

Ceramic resistor: from switched side of key.
To Coil.

Battery : + to main lug solenoid.
ground on main tractor frame.

That's how I see everything..

I really do appreciate your time here..
 
Battery discharging as it is now?
You need to insert a small lamp, such as trailer marker light (#194 bulb) or similar (#57, #1895, etc.) OR a diode (3 to 6 amps is large enough & voltage rating of 100's to be safe, but 50v ok) with cathode (banded end) toward the alternator terminal #1, and "junction of key switch & coil resistor" to other end of diode. Diode or lamp is fine. Another option is to use a resistor instead of lamp or diode. GM used a 10 Ohm, 6.25 Watt resistor, but value is not critical. Of the three, I would use whatever you can easily obtain to insert in that wire. This will stop the "run on" after ignition is turned off. It keeps the alternator from feeding the coil when ignition is turned off.
 
(quoted from post at 10:34:17 07/23/17) Battery discharging as it is now?
You need to insert a small lamp, such as trailer marker light (#194 bulb) or similar (#57, #1895, etc.) OR a diode (3 to 6 amps is large enough & voltage rating of 100's to be safe, but 50v ok) with cathode (banded end) toward the alternator terminal #1, and "junction of key switch & coil resistor" to other end of diode. Diode or lamp is fine. Another option is to use a resistor instead of lamp or diode. GM used a 10 Ohm, 6.25 Watt resistor, but value is not critical. Of the three, I would use whatever you can easily obtain to insert in that wire. This will stop the "run on" after ignition is turned off. It keeps the alternator from feeding the coil when ignition is turned off.

Just wondering would a illuminated toggle switch fill this job? Switch it on when tractor in use and flip it off after use thus opening the circuit..
Or am I missing something here?
 
(quoted from post at 14:36:08 07/26/17)
(quoted from post at 10:34:17 07/23/17) Battery discharging as it is now?
You need to insert a small lamp, such as trailer marker light (#194 bulb) or similar (#57, #1895, etc.) OR a diode (3 to 6 amps is large enough & voltage rating of 100's to be safe, but 50v ok) with cathode (banded end) toward the alternator terminal #1, and "junction of key switch & coil resistor" to other end of diode. Diode or lamp is fine. Another option is to use a resistor instead of lamp or diode. GM used a 10 Ohm, 6.25 Watt resistor, but value is not critical. Of the three, I would use whatever you can easily obtain to insert in that wire. This will stop the "run on" after ignition is turned off. It keeps the alternator from feeding the coil when ignition is turned off.
ure a separate switch will fill the needed function, but why add another thing to try & remember? Even a key switch with an accessory position will do the job & not add something else to remember.

Just wondering would a illuminated toggle switch fill this job? Switch it on when tractor in use and flip it off after use thus opening the circuit..
Or am I missing something here?
 
(quoted from post at 13:36:08 07/26/17)
Just wondering would a illuminated toggle switch fill this job? Switch it on when tractor in use and flip it off after use thus opening the circuit..
Or am I missing something here?

Could that be made to work? Sure, but it's overly complicated. However, using the lamp or diode or resistor as JMOR said is easier and will work automatically. Listen to JMOR, he's steering you right.
 

Ok... The little light bulb in my brain just went off.. lol

So I just need to insert a diode of the values you mentioned in the proper direction or a resistor into the circuit downstream of the key/resistor junction and before the alternator #1 terminal..
Well I know I can get a resistor at the feed store ....

I can do that....

And doing this will allow the tractor to shut down when I turn the key off...
 
(quoted from post at 10:34:17 07/23/17) Battery discharging as it is now?
You need to insert a small lamp, such as trailer marker light (#194 bulb) or similar (#57, #1895, etc.) OR a diode (3 to 6 amps is large enough & voltage rating of 100's to be safe, but 50v ok)[b:32e49577e1] with cathode (banded end) toward the alternator terminal #1, and "junction of key switch & coil resistor" to other end of diode. [/b:32e49577e1]Diode or lamp is fine. [b:32e49577e1] Another option is to use a resistor instead of lamp or diode.[/b:32e49577e1] GM used a 10 Ohm, 6.25 Watt resistor, but [b:32e49577e1]value is not critical.[/b:32e49577e1] Of the three, I would use whatever you can easily obtain to insert in that wire. This will stop the "run on" after ignition is turned off. It keeps the alternator from feeding the coil when ignition is turned off.

Hey JMOR, I have put a ballast resistor, (pn 8NE10306) in the wire down by the alternator on the wire that comes off the #1 spade terminal and runs back to the key switch.. The 8n still will not shut down when I turn the key off..
Info I have says it is a .6 Ohm resistor, it's one the local farm supply store sells for use on the Ford N's..
Is this possibly not the right resistor to use in this application or is there possibly some other problem ?

I will say I do think my battery is trying to be charged now that I have connected the 2 spade wires off the alt correctly.. but it might be to far gone to be saved.. I'll have to pick up another batt charger as mine quit working recently...Charge the battery up and see if it is being maintained..

That "other" place sells a neat little wiring harness that has a diode and a 2 prong plug for the alternator made just for this I believe.. pretty inexpensive too.. I think when I put in a new wiring harness I will add that in as well.. gotta get the governor sussed out first though..
If you have any thought on this resistor thing I'll be happy to read them..
 

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