8n troubles

I've read many posts and helps for my problems but just want to run it by you guys for specific comments.

1952 8N 12v (6v can coil) side mount distributor MS carb.
Been having a terrible time trying to get it started.

Was running great before parked about a year ago. Fresh gas and good flow to carb. 2 yr old cap rotor points and wires in good shape. Cleaned plugs and good spark all cylinders.

Since I had good spark and good fuel flow it had to be the carb. Removed carb and cleaned twice then rebuild kit 3rd time. Popped right off but would only run with choke, then started loping and quit.

Ran down battery turning it over so jumped it from my truck and it started again after several cranks only to run with choke. Was going to check for vacuum leak at intake on next start but now all of sudden I have no spark.

Did I burn up the coil with the truck? How do I check it? Condenser maybe?
Cap, rotor plugs, points and wires are all good.
It has new voltage regulator. Had to replace it earlier when tapping it would not disengage starter.

I would not assume 2 year old points are good. Chances are they are bad. replace and gap to .025" A good spark will jump 1/4" in the open air. a good sign of needing points is that you have to pull the choke out a bit. a richer mixture will fire with a weaker spark.
with a 6 volt coil I assume you have the resistor in the wire going to the coil. It is needed.

Thanks for the quick reply.
The points are not burnt, opening and closing fine. I will double check the gap. What else could go wrong with them?

I've seen this posted before, what does 1/4" gap in "open air" mean? I had been checking spark with the plug in the boot grounded against the (rusty) exhaust manifold. I had a nice blue spark in the gap of the plug all 4 cylinders. Is that the same as an "open air" check?

I don't believe I have a resistor on the wire going to the coil. I installed a 12v conversion kit per instructions with no mention of resistor. Besides the tractor had been running great and starting easy before I parked it.

Respectfully

An open air spark is just that, in the open air. I take an old plug and open the gap way up and test like you are doing. With not resister in the line you are putting 12 volts thru a 6 volt coil and it will do damage over time. I just modify my second 8n and a resistor came in the kit and I did did not feel like getting a 12 volt coil so I use the resistor. It may have a bit too much resistance for the tractor fires as I let off on the starter and that is telling me that the resistor is dropping the voltage too much for when I release the starter button and I put full 12 volts to the resistor it starts right up. I will replace the 6 volt coil with a 12 volt one and get rid of the resistor.

Points can get a layer of corrosion on them just sitting around, try cleaning them with a strip of brown paper bag, clamp it between the points ands pull it out and repeat a number of time.
cheap points with a plastic rubbing block can wear down in faily short period of time and that changes the gap.
good luck

Thanks!
Yea, I've read several posts about the coil and will go to a 12v coil when I'm sure this one is bad.

I checked the gap and it is good, ran apiece of emory cloth thru the contacts 2 weeks ago when I started this "part time" project.
I put a tester on the tractor and have 12v from batt to reg, from reg to alt and coil (both sides) and 12v at points.

Still no spark at plugs? Has to be points or condenser, right?

Don't assume anything you did two weeks ago is still good. On my side mounts I check for spark the with cap off and with a the wire from the top of coil held near a ground I open the points with my finger. If the points are not closing good you will not get a spark.
I think I have only had one condensor go bad since I started working on engines, they are pretty fool proof, they are there to protect the points. without them the points will transfer metal from one point to the other.
I used to use the cellophane from a pack of smokes to make sure the points are really closing. can't do that since I quit smokings.

good luck

" I've seen this posted before, what does 1/4" gap in "open air" mean?"

It means that you buy an adjustable gap plug checker and open the gap to 1/4". Or, open the gap on an old plug to 1/4".

Until you see the spark jump 1/4" in open air, you do not know if you have good spark. Test that and post back , please.

Even w/o a resistor, your coil is likely ok.....for now.

First, put your battery on a charger. The jumper battery is only turning the starter. You need a strong battery for a strong spark. And your meter might show 12 volts, but at 12.24 volts, it's only at 50% capacity. Charge the battery!

Next, replace the plugs. If you flooded it, they're fouled & it will be it next to impossible to start. You don't need to toss them; heat the tips for a few seconds w/ a propane torch to burn off the invisible spark-robbing deposits from today's additive filled gasoline........or wash them in brake cleaner.

And buy a new set of Bluestreak or Echlin points. You may not need them now, but because you dressed the points w/ emory cloth instead of brown paper, you will need them soon.

As R Geiger said, chances are slim that it's a condenser. And it most certainly isn't your v/r.

If the spark jumps 1/4", then move on to fuel. Post back w/ what you find.
75 Tips

hey stinky.......yer points and condenser are good fer 100-volts so no problem there. Ennytime you have starting issues, replace yer sparkies. NO ARGUE!!!.......recommend AutoLite 437's gapped 0.025. Donna throw yer FLOODED sparkies away, just clean'n'dry 'em one-atta-time in HOT running engine and save'um fer the next time. (and there will be a NEXT time) Dunno how tapping a voltage regulator would disengage yer starter motor. Have had neiubee tractor owners fergitt to turn the ignition switch ON while trying to jump start their tractor with 12-volts. Fer what ittza worth, Ford compression specs: 90psi MINIMUM; good runnin' N's about 110psi; brandy NEW N-Engines 125psi. As fer yer carbie; learn how to adjust it. Set the down-pointing mainjet to 2-turns and LEAVITT!!! Adjust the side-pointing idlemix fer FASTEST idle, NOT SMOOTHEST idle. Understand the difference??? Shuld be about 1/8-1/4 turn. Idlemix is bass-ackwards. Out fer lean, IN fer ENRICH. ........HTH, Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister

Thanks Dell.
The tractor was never flooded. Problem was not enough gas.
Now I have no spark.

What happened when I first tried to wake it from slumber was the starter wouldn't disengage. An old timer said tap the reg and sure enough it quit turning over. Well it got to the point that I almost knocked it off trying to get the thing to quit turning over. No issue with that now with a new regulator.

New plugs huh. Alright.

The open air spark still requires it to be grounded against something right? Once again I have no spark at all right now.

Roger on the coil.

Battery is now on a charger.

Going to town;
Buy plugs - autolite 437
Buy points - bluestreak or echlin
Buy gapping tools

That was supposed to be a reply to Bruce.

" The open air spark still requires it to be grounded against something right?"

Yes.

Charge the battery, install & gap the new points. (.025). Gap & install the plugs. (.025).

If it does not start, check for spark.

If you still have no spark, confirm that you have voltage to the coil. Battery voltage, points open. About half that if the points are closed.

Do you have battery voltage across the points when they are open? (with the points open, put one probe on one side of the points & the other probe on the opposite side of the points) Verify the gap on the points at .025. Then, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. (I always spray my feeler gauge blade off w/ contact cleaner.) Make sure you have voltage across the points, as in past the insulator on the side of the distributor. That is a very common failure point on sidemounts, along w/ the attached copper strip. It's hard to find a short there because it is usually an intermittent . So 'wiggle' the insulator & the copper strip a bit when you are doing your checking. If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all.

If you just replaced the rotor & lost spark, put the old one back in. Insure that the rotor fits firmly on the shaft & that the little clip is there. Make sure the distributor cap is not cracked, doesn?t have gouges in it from the rotor or brass shavings & doesn't have carbon tracks. Check continuity on the secondary coil wire. Make sure it is firmly seated in both the cap & the coil. In fact, replace it temporarily w/ a plug wire. Next, remove the secondary coil wire from the center of the distributor cap, turn the key on & crank the engine while holding the end of the wire 1/4" from a rust & paint free spot on the engine. You should see & hear a nice blue/white spark. If not, you have a bad coil or condenser. Just put the old condenser back in to eliminate that as a possibility.

Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was.

And do not touch the carb until you have a spark that jumps 1/4".
75 Tips

With a 6 volt coil and a 12 volt battery you MUST have a resistor. If not you will burn up both coil and points in short order! Before you do anything, check the voltage at the battery side of the coil. With the points open you should have about 12 volts. With the points closed about six volts. Also with the points closed you should have 0 volts on the distributor side of the coil. Do this and report back before you buy and ruin any new parts. If you don't like a resistor you can buy a true 12 volt coil at NAPA. 12 volt coils are somewhat hard to find. 12 volt cars and tractors almost always used 6 volt coils with resistors. Good luck!

skunk, the purpose behind the 1/4" open air thing is because it's harder to spark thru the compressed conditions in the cylinder. that's why u don't just check for spark with a normally gapped plug outside the engine. a spark that can jump that distance in the open air still might not be strong enough to jump the same distance where it needs to - in the cylinder.

as far as points and coil burning up in short order from 12 volts without an added ballast resistor... i'm into my 6th year of a 12 volt conversion with that resistor removed. your mileage may vary

i've never changed or cleaned flooded spark plugs.

Thanks HFJ.

Depends on who you talk to about 6v coil on a 12v conversion I guess. I've had no problems to date either.

However reluctant I installed new points, condenser and replaced the old 437 plugs with new ones. I put a cheap charger on the battery, don't know how well it did but the thing started right up! If it was the points or plugs I am kinda disappointed because they didn't look bad.

Oh well, at least I'm back to where I started this morning.
Tractor fired up immediately without choke but then started loping and died. Back to fuel and vacuum..........

I'm done for today.

Thanks HFJ.

Depends on who you talk to about 6v coil on a 12v conversion I guess. I've had no problems to date either.

However reluctant I installed new points, condenser and replaced the old 437 plugs with new ones. I put a cheap charger on the battery, don't know how well it did but the thing started right up! If it was the points or plugs I am kinda disappointed because they didn't look bad.

Oh well, at least I'm back to where I started this morning.
Tractor fired up immediately without choke but then started loping and died. Back to fuel and vacuum..........

I'm done for today.

Forgot to say thanks to everyone for their help!
I will be bugging you again very soon about it only running with the choke pulled............

" Tractor fired up immediately without choke but then started loping and died. Back to fuel and vacuum.......... "

And that would be a big mistake.

You are assuming that you fixed the spark problem by replacing the points & it started up.

Correlation does not imply causation.

As soon as the tractor starts running rough, check for spark. Will the spark jump 1/4" in open air?

If yes, THEN move on to fuel.
75 Tips

How do I check for spark when it's running? I have to hold the choke open to keep it running, and I need one of the plug wires to do it, don't I?

I did not check for 1/4" spark before starting it. I will do that tomorrow. Old plug with tang bent for 1/4" gap then grounded on manifold, right? Ignition on and turn over........

" How do I check for spark when it's running?"

You don't.

When it starts running rough, turn the key off. Hook up your test spark plug open to 1/4", turn the key on and press the starter button.
75 Tips

Ok Bruce.

Got out there again this evening with a 1/4" gapped plug and turned it over with the ignition on.(To get a 1/4" gap I had to bend the tab almost straight up.)As I figured it would the spark jumped diagonally and not to the tip of the tab that marked 1/4". Anyway the spark was long, strong and blue. Not only that, the tractor started and ran with the #1 plug out! I've never seen that before. It obviously ran crappy and died shortly after.

I put the new plug back in and it fired right up again. I don't think it made a full revolution when it started but immediately went to loping and died. I didn't try it, but I expect that it would have kept running if I pulled the choke.

Thoughts?

(quoted from post at 16:00:44 06/10/17) Thanks Dell.
The tractor was never flooded. Problem was not enough gas.
Now I have no spark.

What happened when I first tried to wake it from slumber was the starter wouldn't disengage. An old timer said tap the reg and sure enough it quit turning over. Well it got to the point that I almost knocked it off trying to get the thing to quit turning over. No issue with that now with a new regulator.

New plugs huh. Alright.

Click to expand...

F you had to beat the regulator to stop the starter, then, my friend, you & your tractor have serious problems!

(quoted from post at 20:07:31 06/12/17)

(quoted from post at 16:00:44 06/10/17) Thanks Dell.
The tractor was never flooded. Problem was not enough gas.
Now I have no spark.

What happened when I first tried to wake it from slumber was the starter wouldn't disengage. An old timer said tap the reg and sure enough it quit turning over. Well it got to the point that I almost knocked it off trying to get the thing to quit turning over. No issue with that now with a new regulator.

New plugs huh. Alright.

Click to expand...

F you had to beat the regulator to stop the starter, then, my friend, you & your tractor have serious problems!

Click to expand...

Nice.

(quoted from post at 06:48:28 06/13/17)

(quoted from post at 20:07:31 06/12/17)

(quoted from post at 16:00:44 06/10/17) Thanks Dell.
The tractor was never flooded. Problem was not enough gas.
Now I have no spark.

What happened when I first tried to wake it from slumber was the starter wouldn't disengage. An old timer said tap the reg and sure enough it quit turning over. Well it got to the point that I almost knocked it off trying to get the thing to quit turning over. No issue with that now with a new regulator.

New plugs huh. Alright.

Click to expand...

F you had to beat the regulator to stop the starter, then, my friend, you & your tractor have serious problems!

Click to expand...

Nice.

Click to expand...

ven though not phrased as a question, there is a question in there. Did you really mean "regulator"?

Yes, the voltage regulator. The contacts inside can stick if it's been sitting a while.
The issue was when I pushed the starter button after sitting for almost a year, the stater would keep turning the engine over even when the button was released.

(quoted from post at 14:59:25 06/13/17) Yes, the voltage regulator. The contacts inside can stick if it's been sitting a while.
The issue was when I pushed the starter button after sitting for almost a year, the stater would keep turning the engine over even when the button was released.

Click to expand...

es, any contacts can stick, but..........my problem is that the regulator and starter are independent of one another, so this does not make any sense to me.

(quoted from post at 16:15:21 06/13/17)

(quoted from post at 14:59:25 06/13/17) Yes, the voltage regulator. The contacts inside can stick if it's been sitting a while.
The issue was when I pushed the starter button after sitting for almost a year, the stater would keep turning the engine over even when the button was released.

Click to expand...

es, any contacts can stick, but..........my problem is that the regulator and starter are independent of one another, so this does not make any sense to me.

Click to expand...

coincidence?

(quoted from post at 11:47:47 06/10/17)
Thanks for the quick reply.
The points are not burnt, opening and closing fine. I will double check the gap. What else could go wrong with them?

I've seen this posted before, what does 1/4" gap in "open air" mean? I had been checking spark with the plug in the boot grounded against the (rusty) exhaust manifold. I had a nice blue spark in the gap of the plug all 4 cylinders. Is that the same as an "open air" check?

I don't believe I have a resistor on the wire going to the coil. I installed a 12v conversion kit per instructions with no mention of resistor. Besides the tractor had been running great and starting easy before I parked it.

Respectfully

Click to expand...

Do yourself a favor and spend a few bucks at the auto parts store and by a spark plug checker.

(quoted from post at 07:09:16 06/13/17)

(quoted from post at 06:48:28 06/13/17)

(quoted from post at 20:07:31 06/12/17)

(quoted from post at 16:00:44 06/10/17) Thanks Dell.
The tractor was never flooded. Problem was not enough gas.
Now I have no spark.

What happened when I first tried to wake it from slumber was the starter wouldn't disengage. An old timer said tap the reg and sure enough it quit turning over. Well it got to the point that I almost knocked it off trying to get the thing to quit turning over. No issue with that now with a new regulator.

New plugs huh. Alright.

Click to expand...

F you had to beat the regulator to stop the starter, then, my friend, you & your tractor have serious problems!

Click to expand...

Nice.

Click to expand...

ven though not phrased as a question, there is a question in there. Did you really mean "regulator"?

Click to expand...

My duh moment, one of many more to come. Not voltage regulator, starter solenoid. Yep, that's me.