I've tried all I know

Tim23

Member
Hey everyone, I need some help. I have a sick '51 8N sidemount with a Zenith carb. About a month ago we were working in the garden when all of a sudden the tractor started stuttering. Just for a few seconds and then everything cleared back up and it was back to normal. I didn't think much of it, just figured it passed a little something through the fuel line or something. A week or so later it does the same thing but this time it doesn't stop. It will barely run, acts like it is starved for fuel. With the throttle near idle it would almost run, but as soon as you try to increase speed it starts roller coastering up and down. I tried letting it run for a while to see if it would clear up but that did not work. I then proceeded to take the carb off, open it up and cleaned it out. Carb was not dirty but I cleaned it good anyways. Every passage had a wire through it, the whole thing chem dipped, wire brushed, compressed air, brake cleaner... reassembled. Back on the tractor same thing.

Oil was changed last fall maybe, not many hours on it anyways. January seen a tune-up with plugs points and a tweek to the carb and timing, it was running really good. I checked the points again anyways and reset to .025". Changed the air cleaner oil, cleaned the plugs with a wire brush and then burned the ends off with a propane torch, drained the fuel and refilled with fresh even though the tractor has not been sitting. Oil pressure is as good as its ever been 25-30 psi cold and a little less hot, not great but the point being that it has not changed. I did a compression test and had almost identical numbers the the one I did a few years ago. I checked the spark with a opened up plug and wasn't getting a good spark, so I swapped the coil out with another I had and no change. The tractor will run, but it sounds almost out of time. Sooo, I messed with the timing too, I knew I had it perfectly timed but I just wanted to see if I could get a response out of it. Whether adjusting the timing or the carb nothing seems to make much of a difference to it until you push it so far it just dies. It doesn't run better or worse, it just barely runs and then too much of anything and dies. I've had it in the yard all day working cause thats where she died but decided to try to limp to the shop since we are expecting rain, and it will go, but just barely, has no power. I don't know what else to change, adjust or check. Any help or ideas would be appreciated. Ty
 
First, order an adjustable gap plug checker.

Next, eliminate fuel as a problem. Remove the bolt on the carb bowl. Turn the gas on 2 turns (no more, no less)

Will the gas fill a pint jar in less than 2 minutes? If yes, then move on to spark. (for now; more on fuel later)

Next, put your battery on a charger. (see tip # 60)

The number 1 cause of a weak spark is a weak battery (and not the coil as you just discovered)

You need a strong battery to:

1. Close the solenoid

2. Spin the starter

3. Engage the bendix

4. Provide voltage to the coil.

As the battery gets weaker, the first thing to fail is your spark. If the battery is almost totally dead, all you will hear is the solenoid clicking.

The more current you use to spin the starter, the less you have for the ignition.

Next, fix the timing issue. Remove the #1 spark plug. (removing all of them makes the job a bit easier) Ignition off, place your thumb over the #1 spark plug hole and crank slowly until compression is felt. Continue to crank the engine until you see the timing mark, 0* (top dead center) on the flywheel through the timing hole in the right side of the bell housing. Use chalk on the flywheel to exactly align the 4 degree mark with the pointer. Loosen the distributor hold down bolt. Rotate the distributor housing counter clockwise until the points are closed. Put the cap on & double check the plug wires, 1-2-4-3, CCW. Then, remove the primary wire from the side of the distributor (or at the coil, whichever is easier) Put one lead of your VOM (set on resistance) on the stud on the side of the distributor & the other on the block or other good ground. Slowly turn the distributor. The needle will move as the points close & then open. Find the exact spot just as the points open & then tighten down the distributor.

Now check your work (and the dynamic timing) w/ a light.

If it won't idle below 500 rpm (400 is better) don't bother w/ a light.

If it idles ok, make 3 marks w/ chalk or white paint on the flywheel:

4*
10*
17*

Start the engine.

At idle, the light should flash & the marker should line up exactly at 4* if you did the static timing correctly.

If not, loosen the distributor & turn it until the marks line up. It should take very little adjustment.

Once you've got that done, increase the engine speed to 1200 rpms. The light should flash & the marker should line up w/ the 10* mark. Then, increase the rpms to 2000 & look for the marker to align w/ the 17* mark.

Close counts on the advanced timing. A degree or 2 either way is ok. But, no movement or 5* or more off means you have an advance weight problem. You don't adjust the distributor to fix that.

Finally...........

As soon as it stops again, check for fuel & spark. Not 5 minutes later, do it as soon as it stops.

Will the spark jump 1/4 " in open air?

Will the gas fill a pint jar in less than 2 minutes?

Post back w/ results.
75 Tips
 
Initially sounds like fuel flow to me. Carb. may be fine but fuel flow may be restricted to it.
I think I would also look at the distributor for bushing wear, fly weights function, points gap on each open lobe point, rotor
condition and cap condition.
 
You mentioned it had weak spark. That's where I'd start.
Why does it have weak spark? Faulty/dirty new points?
Do you have battery voltage all the way to the points with them open?
Drop to zero at the points with them closed?
Check that while wiggling the connection through the side of the
distributor that connects the wire to the points also.
 
Curious. If it is the "points" set at 25 thou I take that to mean distributor points. In my book that gap is spark plug gap. If it is
distributor that wide, won't it make the spark timing very late? Or miss the cam lobe altogether?
 
"If it is the "points" set at 25 thou I take that to mean distributor points."

Good point Graham, that is the correct gap for side mount points
and the spark plugs. If you have a front mount distributor, the
spark plugs are the same but the points are gapped at 15 thou.
 
Ty..........owe geeze........here we go again. Ruff runnin, change the coil. The round can side mount coil is virtuely bullet-proof. Remove the gas cap and release the VACUUM. The vent in the dome at the front and top of the tank is CLOGGED by mud-daubers. To clean the vent, ya gotta remove the hood, and remove the tank from the hood. So much eazier to buy a vented gas cap fer 600-series Ford. Simple, eh? 2nd, check yer firing order. 1,2,4,3; many neiubie tractor mechanic wanna bees gitt the firing order incorrect. Tractor will start and run on just 2-cylinders but won't have enny power just as you are complaining about. Now that ya done futtzed with the carbie, learn how to adjust it. Set the down-pointing MAIN-JET to 2-turns and LEAVITT!!! Adjust the side-pointing idlemix fer FASTEST idle, NOT SMOOTHEST idle. Understand the difference??? Usually about 1/8-1/4 turn. Final comment; ennytime you have running issues, change yer sparkies. Recommend AutoLite 437's gapped 0.025. As fer the stuttering, sounds like WATER in yer gas. Keep yer gastank FULL.........the amazed Dell, and self-appoined sparkie-meister
 

no one should ever have to guess about water in the gas on an N. in a car, sure. cars don't have a glass sediment bowl in plain view. if there's water in the gas, there's water in the sediment bowl. either u can see the two layers of liquid after the tractor's been shut off and sitting for a while, or the entire sediment bowl will be full of water. either way, it's an easy thing to check.
 
Ford N-Series Tractor Front Mount Distributor Points set at .015" and the Side (angle drive) Mount Distributor points set .025". Both have Champion H10 (or equivalent) plugs gapped .025"-.028"...from Operator and F-04 Manuals.


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<font color="#FFFFFF" size="3">*9N653I* & *8NI55I3*</font>​
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Ty everyone. Lots of stuff to do today, Bruce im gonna start with getting my timing back in order. Thought i would post before i go out to work and clear a few things up. Flow to the carb is good. 2 turns open, gas cap on, it drained the entire tank which had about 7 gal with a steady stream. The fuel line is metal and new last fall. Ive had the battery on charge the whole time ive been working. The distributor bushings should be ok, i had to put a new one in when i bought the tractor about 6 years ago and i put a drop or two of oil in it almost every time i take it out. I will check for wobble and gap on all lobes, and clean the points with a brown paper bag to be sure. Im running AL 437 that are near new that I have cleaned off. I swapped some older 437s in that were working when i took them off to check and that had no effect. I had no reason to believe there was water in the tank, i drained it just to cover the bases. The tractor is kept inside and every time my jug gets low i dump the last gal or so in the tractor and go refill, so its fresh fuel.

Lastly, how do i check a condensor. I did not know they could be checked. I would really like to know because i have several laying around. Thanks again. Will post back later.
 
If you have points you would benefit from owning a $15 dwell meter . With a round coil you simply clip on the wires and read the meter . Your dwell comes from the amount of time your points are open which is set by the gap . The eye ball test and feeler gauges can be in error . A dwell meter is accurate .

If the motor is barely or poorly running and the dwell is good then it is a fuel issue . If the dwell is bad it is an ignition issue .
 
If you have a bunch of condensers of unknown condition, I have a tester to tell good or bad. Only takes a few seconds to test them.
 
Update. I found the problem. When i went to set the static timing i noticed that i couldnt get the diz to turn far enough to read through with my meter, per Bruce's instuction. So i took the bolt that holds it down out and twisted back and forth thinking it was gunked up. Turns out that the bolt that locks that collar to the diz had gotten loose over time. I pulled the whole thing, cleaned it up, added some locktite to the bolt that locks it onto the diz and reassembled. Got the timing set, cleaned and reset the points again, and after tweeking the main on the carb its running pretty good. Im gonna have to wait for a better weather day, hopefully next week to get out in the garden and get the carb perfect. Only way I know to do it is to put it under a load and see how the power is and go from there. Coming off the clutch pretty quick in reverse it spins the tires and doesn't bog the engine so id say its close.

Teddy, I read how to online and we have a meter at work I can test my condensors with. Thanks
Ken, I searched dwell meters and found automotive multimeters that give a dwell angle. Is this what i need? Is digital ok?
Bruce, spark checker on order and thanks for ur detailed instructions on timing.
One last thing... I just replaced the points with my tuneup in Jan and they already look worn. Not unusable but they probably only have 5-10 hrs on them. I am gapping them to the best of my ability and check it periodically. I have looked for the grease i am suppose to put on the cam and cannot find it, so I used dielectric grease. My last few sets havent come with the little packet. How long should points last? Ive thought about electronic ignition. Anyways, thanks again for the help and enjoy ur seat time everyone.
 

how long = significantly longer than 5 or 10 hours ;)

i can't be specific, but i have never touched the points on my N. i have probably put 150 hours on it at this point (certainly &gt;100), and there's no telling how old the points already were when i bought it.
 

I've got a front-mount that's been in the family for 20years and the points have never been touched in that time and probably long before that because it was picked up at an auction. I bought a tune-up kit about five years ago but it's still in the drawer. It's my best running N so I decided not to touch it until it needs it.
 
Tim........how do you test condensers??? With an OHM meter. (seriously) Take yer 2-leads and measure across the condeser. Meter will deflect towards "0" and then charge up to "infinity, ie lazy 8 on its side" Then reverse yer leads and measure yer condenser again. Shuld discharge and re-charge. Iff'n it don't re-charge, ittza BAD condenser. I've gotta FCC 1st class license so I know a little about electronics. Note: this simple test just tells ya iff'n its good or BAD. (leaky) Most points condenser measure about 2.2 mfd (microFarad) Farad is unit of capactance. 1-Farad would be about the size of a room. Thats why ittza micro Farad. Alotta radios use mmfd. (micro micro Farad, micro is 1/1,000,000) Lotta the times radios use the distance between 2-printed circuit lines as a micro-micro capacitor. Notice, alotta the times you buy points, they include a new capacitor. Thats 'cuz no one know how to test them without a special tester. Capacitors keep yer points from BURNING........HTH, Dell, yer self-appointed sparkie-meister
 
Glad to hear it's running.

" How long should points last?"

Last time I really checked, I got 5 years on a set. As others have said, that is by no means a record.

" Not unusable but they probably only have 5-10 hrs on them. "

See tips 66, 67 & 68.

Cheap points will do that.

Usually burned points will have pits on one side & raised areas on the others. Sometimes they just wear unevenly. They will most always discolor as they have a coating on the surface. The usual causes of burned points are absence of cam/wearing block lubricant, condenser failure, a decreasing gap caused by wear on the rubbing block, mis-alignment, sanding w/ a point file, excessive current, setting an incorrect gap, leaving the ignition key on w/ the points closed, use of incorrect cam lubricant & poor quality metal. I've heard of points being welded shut, but I've never seen it happen.

You can change points everyday & it will not fix bad bushings. If you are having trouble w/ points failure, check the shaft. If you detect movement, chances are it needs new bushings.

Just because I?ve never experienced a worn out distributor cam doesn?t mean it can?t happen.
Specs for the frontmount are:

Across flats = .789/.791
Over lobes = .869/.871 dia.

Sidemount measurements are:

Across flats = .72
Over lobes = .78 dia.

The next trick to points lasting a long, long time is annual maintenance. (tip # 40) No matter how well it's running, pull the distributor (or cap for a sidemount), check the gap & put a dab of points lube on the cam. Not bearing grease or Vaseline; use the correct lube.

Quality parts are critical to longevity. Having learned the hard way, I most always use Blue Streak brand points. They are made by Standard parts & available at many auto parts stores. (frontmount points also fit a 48 Ford as I recall) Beware of sticker shock: $16-18 a set. My next choices are Wells or Echlin. Look for a brown rubbing block. Unfortunately, many folks have experienced problems w/ points made by Tisco, Sparex, A&I Products and any TSC ignition parts..

Correct points installation & gap is also important. Make sure the blade is at a perfect right angle to the points & you want to feel just the slightest bit of drag when you pull the blade through the points. Make sure the blade is clean & that you dress the new points by running some card stock or a piece of brown paper bag through them. Gap is .015 on the frontmount, .025 on the sidemount on all four lobes of the cam. Make sure the points align correctly. Proper alignment is also critical to longevity. Look at the points when they are closed; both sides should mate evenly.

Even as tight as I am, I always change the condenser when I change the points??.and then I toss the condenser in the ?used? parts box. A bad condenser is rare; you can tell if the points are pitted/burned w/ metal transfer.

Good hold-down screws are important. (tip # 37) If the heads are wallowed out, what do you think the threads look like? You can use machine screws as temporary replacements, but you should use the OEM Fillister head screws. The larger head is there for a reason. If you do use standard machine screws, make sure they aren?t too long & interfere w/ the advance weights. Always use star washers under the screws.

Timing is important to engine performance. Make sure you set the point gap before you set the timing. Timing a sidemount is pretty straight forward; it has marks on the flywheel. It?s a bit different for a frontmount but it?s a necessary part of a tune-up nonetheless. And, contrary to what some folks think, timing a frontmount is not accomplished by getting #1 to TDC & putting the distributor back on the engine!

When I was 16 years old making $1.25 an hour & a set of points cost $1, I filed points. I must have been good at it because I recall it was almost a weekly exercise. If you ever file a set of points, you will remove the metallic coating on them & reduce the life span considerably. Unless you plan to keep on filing them, plan on replacing them pretty soon!

And lastly???it does not matter if it?s 6 volt or 12 volt, you must use the OEM ballast resistor on a frontmount. Too much current to the points will burn them up in short order (leave the key on with the points closed & you will experience this ?learning point? in about 3 minutes, tip # 38) For a 12v conversion on a frontmount, you probably need another resistor in the circuit as well but unless you measure the coil resistance, you will not know for sure. On a 12v sidemount, it will need a resistor if it?s a 6v coil (and even some 12v round coils need one) or you can just get a true 12v coil from NAPA & not worry about it. (tip # 30).
75 Tips
 

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