Smoke but no fire

Lastwest

Member
I am running out of ideas in attempting to fire up the recent overhaul on my 585 engine. The timing has been checked a few times, number 1 on TDC compression , the pump scribe marks are aligned , the tappets are set correctly, but all we get is smoke but no fire. I gave the engine just a small sniff of ether and it fired right away with a good degree of ether knock as I call it. We have bled the fuel system and I always put a 12V in line pump in the fuel line, this really assists bleeding.
Today I removed the injectors and took them to an injection testing shop. Also I will check all injector lines to make sure fuel is getting through. It is like a couple of injectors are working but cannot make the engine run by themselves. The last time we rebuilt a 585 it fired up right away.
Once I know the injectors are all getting fuel and delivering it to the cylinders then I have eliminated this part as a problem area. Round and round we go!!!!
 
This may sound like a dumb question, but is the flywheel on correctly?? I have never messed with a 585, but have seen where a flywheel has been put on 60 degrees off (one bolt hole). It would start with ether, but not want to stay running on its own. Just something to think about. They should have had 1 line up pin so flywheel could only go on one way, in my opinion. Good luck.
 
(quoted from post at 20:13:16 01/13/17) This may sound like a dumb question, but is the flywheel on correctly?? I have never messed with a 585, but have seen where a flywheel has been put on 60 degrees off (one bolt hole). It would start with ether, but not want to stay running on its own. Just something to think about. They should have had 1 line up pin so flywheel could only go on one way, in my opinion. Good luck.

The F/W can be installed in only one position, in fact it is a real effort to get the holes lined up considering the thing weighs 100 plus lbs , thanks Doug for your suggestion. I checked the injector lines this morning ,all are delivering fuel, now I will wait for the injectors from the shop and see how that goes once installed.
 
(quoted from post at 11:57:49 01/14/17) Got any way to check compression? Could be too low; or not
spinning over fast enough.
I am currently working on a tester but I do not believe this to be the problem as this engine was rebuilt just prior to piling up due to a broken or dislodged oil line.(previous owner)
 
The cam gear has two marks, number one and number two, side by side,the book says line up number 1 on the crankshaft gear to number 1 on the cam gear which of course I did. The shaft that drives the injection pump has no timing marks, but the scribe marks on the side of the pump must be aligned for proper timing, this of course is accomplished by installing the pump in the proper splines on this shaft driven from the cam gear. I agree ,it does sound suspicious of timing but now the injectors are out I may be able to glean more information by observing the firing moment via TDC of each piston.
 
(quoted from post at 03:49:57 01/14/17) I am running out of ideas in attempting to fire up the recent overhaul on my 585 engine. The timing has been checked a few times, number 1 on TDC compression , the pump scribe marks are aligned , the tappets are set correctly, but all we get is smoke but no fire. I gave the engine just a small sniff of ether and it fired right away with a good degree of ether knock as I call it. We have bled the fuel system and I always put a 12V in line pump in the fuel line, this really assists bleeding.
Today I removed the injectors and took them to an injection testing shop. Also I will check all injector lines to make sure fuel is getting through. It is like a couple of injectors are working but cannot make the engine run by themselves. The last time we rebuilt a 585 it fired up right away.
Once I know the injectors are all getting fuel and delivering it to the cylinders then I have eliminated this part as a problem area. Round and round we go!!!!
ne of the most common mistakes is getting the pump out of time 180 degrees. Remember that the 585 valves are different than all other MM the first valve at the front of the engine is an Intake not an ex so if you are rolling the engine over to get it on top dead center firing position on #1 cyl you have to watch the front valve open and close to know you are in the right position.
 
(quoted from post at 19:13:01 01/17/17) Yes it sounds like the pump is out 180?.
I just cannot see the engine not firing because of poor injector condition ,misdirected stream ,slobbering etc. You fellas may be on the right track Re: the pump timing . As I have said previously, the valve timing has to be correct. The correct valves are closed on TDC #1 and TDC #6 compression. I bought five new injectors yesterday as only one in the tractor tested OK, but there again it is highly unlikely that malfunctioning injectors would not allow this engine to run.
I will put the injectors in today and try that first, then if there is still a problem I will re-time the pump.
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
 
I haven't read anywhere where you say what injection pump your working with..
IF its a PSB by American Bosch, it takes 2 rotations of the pump to make it fire thru all the cylinders.
Meaning, even tho it has a master spline on the drive, it could be 180* out of time.
To be sure, get the ENGINE on #1 compression stroke, pull the side cover on the pump..
There should be a RED timing mark in the window.. IF NOT, the drive shaft is 180* out and needs to be turned, 1 full turn.. This can be done w/o the injectors in and may be easier to rotate the engine w/ them out..
Good luck & I hope this helps.
 
Sounds like you are firing on #6 not number 1. May be try TDC with both valves closed go
past till #1 exhaust open and back motor up till you are 4 degrees past TDC. Pump mark
should line up.
 
(quoted from post at 15:05:26 01/18/17) Sounds like you are firing on #6 not number 1. May be try TDC with both valves closed go
past till #1 exhaust open and back motor up till you are 4 degrees past TDC. Pump mark
should line up.
I have the balancer marked off in 60 degree segments. As I turned the engine starting with No 1 on TDC, the crankshaft indicated that my mark for the next piston, in this case number 5 was at TDC before the # 1 valve started to open. By the time the crankshaft had rotated 180 degrees # 1 valve was just closing. Seems to me #1 valve should be opening several degrees before no 1 piston approaches TDC to fire. Since the can turns at 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft it seems this could possibly be the problem. Any comments would be appreciated.
 
If you had ether knock with just a snuff, I would think compression is good enough, at least to keep running. If there is a problem with valves opening when they should not, you would hear a whistle noise while cranking.

I would just expect injection pump timing issue, or very mixed up injectors lines. From experience, it takes at least 3-4 firing cylinders to run a 6. Freshly rebuilt, it probably takes the 6 of them.
Injection pump timing has to be checked carrefully.

Last thing is too high injectors pop pressure on a tired injection pump. If it smokes, that can also be ruled out, but smoke could be oil smoke, because you just rebuilt the motor.

So first thing is to rule out injection pump timing by the method explained above. You can also in theory crank it with the injectors pointed outside of the motor but connected, to check if they pop.
 
Exhaust valve should open after #1 TDC. Motor timing is 4 degrees past TDC not before.Turn
motor past TDC about 1/8 turn and exhaust will open. If exhaust opens before TDC there will
be no compression.
 
(quoted from post at 06:46:43 01/19/17) Exhaust valve should open after #1 TDC. Motor timing is 4 degrees past TDC not before.Turn
motor past TDC about 1/8 turn and exhaust will open. If exhaust opens before TDC there will
be no compression.
Pump is a Roosa Master. I put willow sticks in the injector holes ,cranked the engine with starter and they blew out ,sounded like rifle shots. However I could not observe which order the came out. I found some specs re: the valves,
Intake opens. 9 degrees BTDC
Intake closes. 39 degrees ABDC
Exhaust opens. 38 degrees BBDC
Exhaust.closes. 6 degrees. ATDC
I just now checked this on # 1 cylinder, exhaust opens 10-15 degrees BBDC (spec says 38 degrees BBDC) and closes 3-4 degrees BTDC ( spec says 6 degrees ATDC). Something is amiss here. Also I noticed #1 seemed to fire ( stick popped out ) when #4 was almost at TDC. ( firing order 15-36-24 )
I will get my neighbour to help me with the engine, maybe he will observe something I did not.
 
There are 24 teeth on the crankshaft and 76 on the cam gear. If indeed the crankshaft is out of time with the camshaft, and the camshaft is rotated one full turn and reset to the marks ,#1 to # 1, is this going to correct things , as that would mean the degree change would about 120 degrees as the cam turns at close to 1/3 the speed of the crankshaft.?
To confuse things there are timing marks on the cam gear #3 and #4,but they are not exactly 180 degrees , but the book says use #1 to # 1 marks and that this cam was used on other engines. These numbers would probably be used to time a driven gear to the cam.
It is not that difficult to remove the front cover and if the cam has to be reset, then a person can see what is going on.
 
Out of 585 technical manual. Rotate crankshaft until #1 starts on compression. Continue to
rotate until pointer in flywheel timing hole indicates 4 degrees AFTER TDC. Remove timing
cover on pump.Line up marks.
 
(quoted from post at 11:42:16 01/20/17) Out of 585 technical manual. Rotate crankshaft until #1 starts on compression. Continue to
rotate until pointer in flywheel timing hole indicates 4 degrees AFTER TDC. Remove timing
cover on pump.Line up marks.
Yes that is exactly what I did and had done when I assembled the engine. The marks were out a bit ,maybe less than 1/8 inch, but by turning the pump I was able to just barely get them within a hair of allignment.
I think we will now put the new injectors in and try to do the startup.
Thanks
 
Timing gear is used on several applications. Whatever number is on crankshaft you line up
with number on cam. If #2 on crank match it to #2 on cam.
 
The roosa master clears things up, for me anyway..
IF you still think the pump is the problem.. There is a dot on the end of the pumps drive shaft and a dot inside the injection pump.. those dots HAVE TO BE lined up..dot to dot..
When the engine is timed properly to the correct engine *'s #1 cylinder compression stroke.. remove the small side cover on the injection pump, the lines should be lined up..
IF your ABSOLUTLY SURE the engine is on the correct stroke, compression and the correct *'s and the lines don't show in the window.. Take the pump back off, insert a long screwdriver down the pump and turn the inside of the pump until the lines line up in the window and reinstall the pump.. she'll fire then.. I hope this helps.. TPG
 
There are 24 teeth on the crankshaft and 76 on the cam gear.

The best I know about engines this will never work! If it is 24 on crank you need 48 on camshaft or 38 on crank and 76 on cam gear.
 
(quoted from post at 00:52:17 01/21/17) Yes, cam is 1/2 speed of crank; not 1/3 like what was posted before.

Yes, you are right, I had been looking at a pic in the shop manual and it was a different application. White wasn't real clear about good descriptive literature etc, for instance the torque on the rods, book says 80 and experts say 60 ft. Lbs. and the ambiguity of the timing marks on the timing/ crankshaft gears.
I looked in the parts shed at a spare crank, 36 teeth , cam gear has 72 teeth, this is what most people would have predicted. The driven gear to drive the pump off the cam gear has 24 teeth.
Today we will put the injectors in and see if we can fire up or will the pump setting have to be changed. Thanks for your help guys
 
(quoted from post at 10:04:57 01/21/17)
(quoted from post at 00:52:17 01/21/17) Yes, cam is 1/2 speed of crank; not 1/3 like what was posted before.

Yes, you are right, I had been looking at a pic in the shop manual and it was a different application. White wasn't real clear about good descriptive literature etc, for instance the torque on the rods, book says 80 and experts say 60 ft. Lbs. and the ambiguity of the timing marks on the timing/ crankshaft gears.
I looked in the parts shed at a spare crank, 36 teeth , cam gear has 72 teeth, this is what most people would have predicted. The driven gear to drive the pump off the cam gear has 24 teeth.
Today we will put the injectors in and see if we can fire up or will the pump setting have to be changed. Thanks for your help guys

Well I have really reached a stalemate, put in the new injectors, checked the pump ,dots are aligned on the input shaft to inside of pump, still just smoke. I put an external injector on #6 and it shows no sign of emitting fuel. Someone new to the scene helped me recheck the timing. When the engine was turned over and the injectors were out, each cylinder emitted vapour when the piston would normally be firing at TDC.
Basically we are back to square one, the only significant finding was the external injector did not show signs of firing. So what now, check the condition of the pump, this pump ran the engine prior to the engine seizing (previous owner) surely it is doing the job now and if it is not firing the injectors , why all the smoke?
I suppose I now will check the compression once I find a suitable tester.(440 - 460 lbs). Have to check every possible venue it seems.
 
(quoted from post at 17:10:40 01/22/17)
(quoted from post at 10:04:57 01/21/17)
(quoted from post at 00:52:17 01/21/17) Yes, cam is 1/2 speed of crank; not 1/3 like what was posted before.

Yes, you are right, I had been looking at a pic in the shop manual and it was a different application. White wasn't real clear about good descriptive literature etc, for instance the torque on the rods, book says 80 and experts say 60 ft. Lbs. and the ambiguity of the timing marks on the timing/ crankshaft gears.
I looked in the parts shed at a spare crank, 36 teeth , cam gear has 72 teeth, this is what most people would have predicted. The driven gear to drive the pump off the cam gear has 24 teeth.
Today we will put the injectors in and see if we can fire up or will the pump setting have to be changed. Thanks for your help guys



Well I have really reached a stalemate, put in the new injectors, checked the pump ,dots are aligned on the input shaft to inside of pump, still just smoke. I put an external injector on #6 and it shows no sign of emitting fuel Someone new to the scene helped me recheck the timing. When the engine was turned over and the injectors were out, each cylinder emitted vapour when the piston would normally be firing at TDC.
Basically we are back to square one, the only significant finding was the external injector did not show signs of firing. So what now, check the condition of the pump, this pump ran the engine prior to the engine seizing (previous owner) surely it is doing the job now and if it is not firing the injectors , why all the smoke?
I suppose I now will check the compression once I find a suitable tester.(440 - 460 lbs). Have to check every possible venue it seems.

You know how the old time mechanics including myself say " try th simplest things first" well I should have listened more closely , must be something to do with age. I cannot believe I did not think of this at the beginning, however I got thinking about a previous sentence I had written " why all the smoke" . Well it hit me, all we needed was preheat. I connected the elbow of the intake manifold,rigged up some cables and preheated for about 15-20 seconds and it fired up and ran. Oil pressure about 60 lbs cold.
Our shop is set to about 10 degrees C or 50 F . Any of my 585 's require preheat or ether but never both of course even on a warm summer day. LESSON LEARNED, thanks again guys for your help.
 

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