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Minneapolis Moline Tractors Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

Help

Author  [Modern View]
dkr

03-24-2014 12:37:00
216.114.61.106



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I have a 5 STar I just rebuilt. M5 jugs bored to 4.8" with Ross pistons and new rings that came through Ross. Engine ran ratty so I checked and found #3 & 4 dead. Compression was 0. #1 & 2 were 240.Expecting broken rings or burned pistons, we removed the pistons and found everything good except we could see where the valve impressions could barely be seen on the piston surface. The rear of #3 piston was worn at the top with obvious scraping and a little scarring on the cylinder. We couldn't see anything wrong with #4 piston or cylinder. Does anyone have an idea what might be my problem. Thanks for any help.

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MMDEL

03-31-2014 07:51:38
98.213.79.75



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
I'm sorry, I thought I was replying to dkr. He said the valves were hitting the tops of cyl 3 & 4. with tha cam out of time.

MMDEL



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MMDEL

03-29-2014 08:22:03
98.213.79.75



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
Well I guess you found enough rope. I have one question I am puzzled about. On that model engine how could the valves possibly hit the top of flat top MM pistons? Or do you have aftermarket domed pistons?

MMDEL



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dkr

03-31-2014 18:25:24
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to MMDEL, 03-29-2014 08:22:03  
I can't answer that question. I really don't understand why the marks are there, but there were 3 very capable mechanics there who saw the marks and agreed that they were caused by the valves. The pistons are flat.



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MDHJR

03-28-2014 16:36:35
50.108.50.43



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeifthe lines are straight across from each other turn the engine 180 degrees and they will line up cam to crank ratio is 2 to 1. The 0 is for aligning the accsesory drive for using a mag.



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jd plowboy

03-29-2014 16:59:51
69.160.179.248



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 Re: Help in reply to MDHJR, 03-28-2014 16:36:35  
when we did our ub special we were told that the zero meant nothing. it will be on left side of engine at top on oppsite side of accessory drive cause the lines go at a angle on the gears.
i dont know about the valves hitting the pistons we didnt have that problem. we had flattops to the top of the case with 31 heads at the time



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dkr

03-28-2014 11:16:10
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
I found it guys. Just like some of you said it was 180* out. I found the right mark straight across from the O. I'm not sure how I did that, but I sure did it. Thanks for your help. Feeling a little stupid right now.



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howard h.

03-28-2014 20:38:30
174.130.149.48



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-28-2014 11:16:10  
Glad you found the problem!!

Now just post a video of it running smooth on youtube so we can all hear it!!

:)

Howard



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jd plowboy

03-28-2014 13:29:45
69.160.179.239



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-28-2014 11:16:10  
that would be me and my brother molinepuller55. we went through the same problem with a ub special. glad you got it fixed. we talked about it the other day and that is when he posted the pic of the gears with the 2 marks.



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dkr

03-28-2014 15:18:48
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to jd plowboy, 03-28-2014 13:29:45  
Yeah, that pic really did it for me. thanks again.



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MDHJR

03-27-2014 18:46:08
50.108.50.43



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 Re: Help in reply to Alan K, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see a four cyl cant have the cam out 180 degrees only the ditributor. is this a gas? It isvirtually impossible to open the valves far enough to hit the piston unless something wasmajor assembld wrong



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jd plowboy

03-28-2014 03:37:55
69.160.179.234



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 Re: Help in reply to MDHJR, 03-27-2014 18:46:08  
if the marks on the cam are straight across from each other then it is 180 degrees off. we looked at a cam gear and the zero and the line is across the gear from each other so that will be way off.



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MMDEL

03-27-2014 10:14:42
98.213.79.75



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
Didn't see Page 2 before I posted. I would think that if the gears are wrong It would go in and out of time, and would not run steady on 1 & 2

MMDEL



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MMDEL

03-27-2014 10:08:16
98.213.79.75



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
Well we are grasping at straws here, and this is probably a stuipid theory. I have not studied the possibilities. Is it possible that the cam is 180 degrees off, and due to the firing order 1 & 2 are working, and 3 & 4 are way off base????????? When you get to the end of the rope make more Rope.

MMDEL



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dkr

03-27-2014 13:00:42
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to MMDEL, 03-27-2014 10:08:16  

Ha!! Agreed on the rope. I took these pics today to show the timing marks. I put some white stuff on the crank gear to show where the tining mark is but the mark shows up well. You see the O on the cam gear. These two marks don't match up exactly but as close as I can get them. You can see the cam gear marks on a tooth and the crank gear marks on a tooth. These marks can never match exactly. Is it possible I have the wrong crank gear? that's the one I replaced.

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molinepuller55

03-27-2014 15:57:36
69.160.179.249



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-27-2014 13:00:42  

36 tooth crank gear 72 tooth cam gear. Timing mark 180 degrees from 0 mark on cam gear.



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dkr

03-27-2014 18:05:52
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to molinepuller55, 03-27-2014 15:57:36  
Crap, so I possibly have it 180* out. That O was the only mark we could find on the cam gear. I'll check it again tomorrow. Thanks.



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jd plowboy

03-27-2014 15:32:24
69.160.179.233



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-27-2014 13:00:42  
i was told that there should be a line back from the zero and that should be lined up with the line on the crank gear. also the gear needs to be a 36 tooth on the crank and a 72 tooth on the cam. try this and see if it helps



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Howard H.

03-26-2014 09:55:09
164.58.210.28



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  

Are you sure the head gasket made a good seal??

There isn't a chance it is/was blowing between the 3 & 4 cylinders, is there??

Did the valve adjustments seem to feel right when you set the valves??


Howard



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dkr

03-26-2014 16:43:47
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to Howard H., 03-26-2014 09:55:09  
Thanks, Howard. There was nothing to indicate a bad seal on the head gasket. A fire ring was broken on #3 but I think we did that removing the head. We shook the rocker arms, sprayed the guides with Kroil and tapped on the valves with a rubber mallet. The valve action looked normal when we ran the engine. I think I can solve my problem when I determine why the valves are open on top stroke. I'm just totally out of ideas.

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MMDEL

03-26-2014 08:38:44
98.213.79.75



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
Did you have the cam out since it ran correctly??

MMDEL



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dkr

03-26-2014 09:31:39
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to MMDEL, 03-26-2014 08:38:44  
MMDEL, this is gonna sound stupid, but, I can't remember. Immediately after I tore it down my wife died and I sorta lost interest in it for a couple of years. It's been about 2 - 1/2 years now since I tore it down so I really don't remember, which is not unusual for me. I had to change out the timing gear so I guess there's a chance I did remove it. What might be the downside of that?



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jd plowboy

03-26-2014 13:55:36
69.160.179.249



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-26-2014 09:31:39  
did you go back with the right amount of teeth on the cam gear to match the crank gear



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dkr

03-26-2014 16:48:28
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to jd plowboy, 03-26-2014 13:55:36  
I thought of that and I believe the answer is yes. I was helped by Ken Foland and he advised me of the gear to use and actually sent it to me. I'm pretty confident I have the right one. But, wouldn't that affect all cylinders?



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jd plowboy

03-26-2014 18:29:54
69.160.179.242



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-26-2014 16:48:28  
i dont think it would effect all cylinders. we bought a engine for a ub special and the bottom end was together when we got it. we put the heads and all on top and set the timing and it would fire every now and again. we found out that the g crank had the wrong gears on it for the new style front cover. we could never get it to do anything. we got it on compression stroke and found out that the exhaust valve was opening instead of the intake. it would only fire on every other time on one or two cylinders and was on the exhaust side at compression stroke. after we changed the gears and got the intake to open on compression stroke it ran like a champ. does yours have the new style front cover or the old style. i take it you got a 6 inch crank in it.
i think with the old style cover it should have a 70 35 tooth gear and a new style should be a 72 36 tooth gear.

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dkr

03-27-2014 07:03:12
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to jd plowboy, 03-26-2014 18:29:54  
Gonna take the front cover off today and see what's going on in there. I think we're narrowing it down now and I really think I'll find the problem inside that front cover. THanks for the help.



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jd plowboy

03-26-2014 13:57:49
69.160.179.249



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 Re: Help in reply to jd plowboy, 03-26-2014 13:55:36  
it may be 180 degrees out of time and on the compression stroke the exhaust valve is opening and letting the compression out the exhaust.



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mmfan

03-25-2014 05:05:53
98.201.166.130



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
If everything looks good up top, it may be a valve not seating or hanging open some. I like to make an adapter for the compression tester to put compressed air in the cylinder. Lets you get an idea where the leak is.



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dkr

03-25-2014 12:03:26
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to mmfan, 03-25-2014 05:05:53  
Jason, we crancked it over while watching the valve action and all the valves were coming back to the top. I agree with you that for some reason the valves are open when the piston comes to the top. How else could there be valve marks on the pistons. You would think valve timing, but #1 & #2 are fine. Scratching my head here.



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mmfan

03-27-2014 05:03:40
98.201.166.130



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-25-2014 12:03:26  
I would check the cam timing, Are the gears correct? Are you lining up the timing marks? Go through and check that stuff first.

My point to pressuring the cylinders is you can feel the intake, exhaust, and crankcase for air flow. It lets you determine where to start.



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kevin moschenrose

03-25-2014 21:49:38
74.34.82.47



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-25-2014 12:03:26  
It maybe the valves are not fully closing when they should via hanging up in the guides or weak springs maybe?



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dkr

03-26-2014 06:19:23
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to kevin moschenrose, 03-25-2014 21:49:38  
We thought about that and actually watched the valve action when it was running. They all worked normally. I'm lost.



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Klw445

03-24-2014 20:08:45
50.172.40.14



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
Had that happen once on a U. I got in a hurry when installing the push rods and rockers. They were not seated in the lifters correctly and after it started they fell into place. Resulted in failure to open the valve. I sure was glad it was that easy. Hopefully yours will be that simple as well???



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jd plowboy

03-24-2014 13:38:11
69.160.179.247



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 12:37:00  
are the intake gaskets good. i had a 605 that wouldnt fire and the gaskets was bad.



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dkr

03-24-2014 14:11:53
216.114.61.106



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 Re: Help in reply to jd plowboy, 03-24-2014 13:38:11  
Thanks, JD. I noticed they need replacing. But, would that account for the lack of compression?



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kevin moschenrose

03-24-2014 21:50:32
74.34.82.47



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 14:11:53  
Bad intake gaskets have nothing to do with low compression or a lack of.



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jd plowboy

03-25-2014 03:49:56
69.160.179.212



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 Re: Help in reply to kevin moschenrose, 03-24-2014 21:50:32  
thats why i said what i did but the one head on the 605 was dead and after the gaskets it ran like it should have



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kevin moschenrose

03-25-2014 09:10:52
74.34.82.47



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 Re: Help in reply to jd plowboy, 03-25-2014 03:49:56  
Bad intake gaskets would make the fuel/air ratio way to lean too run correctly if at all.



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jd plowboy

03-24-2014 14:59:09
69.160.179.247



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 Re: Help in reply to dkr, 03-24-2014 14:11:53  
im not sure of that but would try that first. i had a 6 cylinder moline that would skip on 1 head and we changed the intake and exhaust gaskets and it ran fine. if they look like they need replacing that could be the problem



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