Massey 65 front end axle is Massey 85/88

fixt · Feb 7, 2018

I got my front hub wheel bearings in from the Agco dealer and they were way too small. We got to figuring and looking and this thing has a Western 85/88 front end under it. At least so say the bearing numbers we came up with... they matched the 85/88 front end in his books and dang computin machine thingy.
Just got the spindle thrust washer bearing for a 65 front end order cancelled as they had not shipped yet.
I guess its just a thing with old tractors figuring out what you got.

My serial number is UNMD 704769. What do I have here?
I know its a diesel, it has the shuttle shift lever right side. Front tires are 7.50x16.
I'm a little stumped unless front ends will interchange

Bob N.Y. · Feb 7, 2018

Pictures would be very helpful. The 85 is a utility tractor with an adjustable front axle. The 88 is the wheatland version of the 85 with a non-adjustable arched front axle. I think they also had cast center front wheels.

fixt · Feb 7, 2018

Thanks for the reply Bob.
Its not the adjustable axle version. I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow, its outside under a tarp cause of the rain.
Looking at the Agco book online it looks like what they are calling a 85/88 (Western) (MF88). That's matching the bearing numbers to the tractor model; the dealer did that. That's all I know until I can get you guys some pictures

ptfarmer · Feb 7, 2018

17201A Cup, Bearing, Inner (Timken) (Used W/701114M1, Cone).
or
22663X Cup, Bearing, Inner (Hyatt) (Used W/195123M1, Cone).

354369X1 Cup, Bearing outer (2-21/64" O.D.).
354370X1 Cone, Bearing outer.

831635M1 Seal, Dust.

For your tractor, and the serial number, the part numbers above are what you should need since you have a Utility tractor (these part numbers also fit the Western 88 front hubs). Around the serial number of your tractor a few changes were made to the front hubs so it can be tricky to get the correct bearings.

ptfarmer · Feb 7, 2018

After looking at the parts book some more, some pictures of your front axle, and hubs would help.

fixt · Feb 8, 2018

Here are pictures. I hope they help.
Numbers off the parts I have are:
Inner bearing hub race: Timken 25520
Inner cone bearing: Part of the number is gone, I can't quite make it out, maybe 25580 or 25590. Don't really know. It says Koyo Japan
Outer hub race: Timken LM67010
Outer hub cone bearing: Timken LM67048, I think

Will the Spindle thrust washer 183300M1 for the 85/88 fit this tractor since the hub bearings fit? I surely hope so.

The number cast in the hub is 191521M1. Hub parts number for the 65 or 85/88 Standard, Hi Arch, and Row Crop Twin (MF85) do not match this number. The 85/88 hub is 191520M1. That hub part number 191521M1 was not found.

This is the axle. Note the two washers on the axle stub. According to parts book for both 65 and 85/88, only one washer supposed to be there.
Neither are keyed like one is supposed to be and will only fit the threaded part of the axle. Parts man says the keyed bearing retaining washer 184136M1 is obsolete. Now what do I do here? Just open up the washer diameter to fit the bearing ID? I don't know how far its supposed to go on there except to adjust the bearings... to say I don't know if the key is required or not.

Another pic of the axle trying to show the pivot, but you can't see it very well due to shadows. Sorry bout that.

Thanks for the help everyone! Anything else you need to help me figure out the parts for this thing just say so and I'll get on it.

Bob N.Y. · Feb 8, 2018

How about a pic of the whole tractor. If I understand this correctly, you thought you had a 65, but 65 wheel bearings don't fit. That is NOT an 88 front axle. I think you may have an industrial version of a 65.

ptfarmer · Feb 8, 2018

The only thing I found was 25590 = 701114M1, and the cone was 17201. None of the other number matched to the MF65, the casting numbers usually isn't a part number. Can you get me measurements A, B, C, and D from the old inner, and outer bearings (that's going to be the only way).

fixt · Feb 8, 2018

Cone A= 1.7982
Cone B= .9810 to .9945 The bearing back face is a little boogered, hard to tell exactly
Cup C = 3.2657
Cup D = .7527

I hope that's close to specification. Not sure of the cal on the 3-4" set of mikes. Thank you!

fixt · Feb 8, 2018

I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier. There is a lot of yellow under the current paint job... I thought it was a primer of some kind.
I'll get you a picture tomorrow.
Any particular angle?

ptfarmer · Feb 8, 2018

(quoted from post at 15:05:48 02/08/18)
Cone A= 1.7982
Cone B= .9810 to .9945 The bearing back face is a little boogered, hard to tell exactly
Cup C = 3.2657
Cup D = .7527

I hope that's close to specification. Not sure of the cal on the 3-4" set of mikes. Thank you!

These are the closest ones I could find closest to your measurements.
Cone 1.796" x 1.00" = AGCO 701114M1 (Timken 25590)
Cup 3.265" x .750" = AGCO AG604111 (Timken 25520)

Is that the only bearing you are having trouble with finding?

ptfarmer · Feb 8, 2018

(quoted from post at 16:25:26 02/08/18) I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier. There is a lot of yellow under the current paint job... I thought it was a primer of some kind.
I'll get you a picture tomorrow.
Any particular angle?

If the yellow is the original paint then it was a utility tractor.

fixt · Feb 8, 2018

If it was a utility tractor, which makes sense given the yellow under the paint, what does that mean as far as parts?
Harder to identify and find, impossible to find... what?

ptfarmer · Feb 8, 2018

They have the utility parts in the same book as the ag 65 (you kind of have to look for the utility parts). Are you in North America, or the UK, or ?

fixt · Feb 8, 2018

North America... North Carolina even.

ptfarmer · Feb 8, 2018

(quoted from post at 18:02:39 02/08/18) North America... North Carolina even.

I seen that right after I hit the post button, anyways do you have a good picture of the grill, hood, and a really good picture of the serial number tag. On a utility a few parts maybe different, but its still a agricultural 65 tractor at heart.

fixt · Feb 8, 2018

As far as finding bearings, parts man cross refenced the numbers on the cone cups and came up with the bearings and the wheel seals as well... all that pointed to an 85/88 front end. This is what parts man is telling me. We will see if he comes through or not.

What about the outer bearing retainer washer 184136M1 for massey 85/88 spindle)?
Mine is not keyed to fit into slot on the axle stub and parts man says discontinued.
Should I just open up the washer to the outer bearing I.D?

fixt · Feb 8, 2018

I will get those pictures tomorrow morning.

Bob N.Y. · Feb 8, 2018

Here is a link to a youtube video of a 65 industrial. It shows a few glimpses of the front axle. Does this resemble your tractor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VixGT3Oouo

ptfarmer · Feb 8, 2018

(quoted from post at 18:19:47 02/08/18) As far as finding bearings, parts man cross refenced the numbers on the cone cups and came up with the bearings and the wheel seals as well... all that pointed to an 85/88 front end. This is what parts man is telling me. We will see if he comes through or not.

What about the outer bearing retainer washer 184136M1 for massey 85/88 spindle)?
Mine is not keyed to fit into slot on the axle stub and parts man says discontinued.
Should I just open up the washer to the outer bearing I.D?

They always have used some parts from one tractor model to another. The 85/88 tractor, the 65 utility uses the 184036M1 Washer, retaining (3/4 x 2 x 3/16", Special). The 88 western uses the same 184036M1 Washer, retaining (3/4 x 2 x 3/16", Special).

One thing I noticed in the picture of your spindles is that there is no thrust bearings between the knees, and the spindles.

fixt · Feb 9, 2018

Bob to be honest it is hard to tell a lot from that video.
My exhaust is underslung on the lower left side. The lower instrument panel where the key switch and light switch is looks to be different. The hood doesn't have those bend lines in it. That's about all I could tell. Pics to follow today after I pull the spindle to check the spindle thrust washer.

Bob N.Y. · Feb 9, 2018

Here are a couple pics. of an 88.

Bob N.Y. · Feb 9, 2018

Here is the front.

fixt · Feb 9, 2018

No mine doesn't look like that. Hood is different, fenders are different. I'm putting up pictures now

fixt · Feb 9, 2018

Here are the pictures as promised.

The spindle was dry but there was grease in the tube (not enough). No obvious damage to the spindle. The spindle thrust washer bearing thingy was collapsed? There was about 1/4" up down play in the spindle. The spindle diameter is 1 1/2". That old spindle thrust bearing doesn't look like any of the new ones I've seen. I think it may have had a front end loader on it at one time; the bolt ends in the chassis frame have been cut off. That might account for the front wear I'm seeing. Or it could just be the years long toll of age, like me.

The serial and data plate. UNDM 704769. If you need other stuff hidden by the linkage just say so.

Tractor pictures. Lower instrument panel removed for new gauges and wiring, switches and stuff.

OK, off to clean up the spindle.
Thanks again guys.

ptfarmer · Feb 9, 2018

The front spindles are in bad shape where they go into the knees of the front axle (never seen one pitted like that one). The only real difference between a 65, and 65 utility tractor is the yellow paint used on the utility model. That same front axle was also used on some vineyard tractors. The thrust bearings should be about 3/8" - 1/2" thick (the one in the picture is the correct one).

ptfarmer · Feb 9, 2018

On the spindles that are worn where the bushings are in the knees I usually just weld them up, and re-machine them.

You may want to check the wear on the front axle pivot, I've had to either weld the bore, and machine it. or machine it, and make bushings because the pivot pin fore into the front axle support. This is my 135 with probably has the exact same front axle.

All fixed, assembled, and painted.

fixt · Feb 9, 2018

The pitting is mainly in the middle instead of at the upper bushing and lower bushing/bearing ends. I did have some wiggle there so I know there is wear.At any rate, I'll have to live with the spindles for now money wise.
What is the up/down spindle play supposed to be?
I always thought if there ain't grease coming out, keep pumping until it does. I'll double check that those zerks are taking grease.
I'll check the pivot when I'm done with the bearings/seals and get the axle hubs back together and report back.
What kind of play should I be looking for?
What about the front pivot pin shims clearance?
Around .008?

The thrust washer bearing outer housing is in fact 1/2" thick but the inside has collapsed maybe 1/8" or a little better. The two halves will turn but very hard.

Do you use a bullnose center on the hub end when you chuck the spindle and then indicate it? What's the clearance from spindle to bushing supposed to be?
What kind of lathe and swing?

You're doing some mighty good looking work there, nice looking bore.

ptfarmer · Feb 9, 2018

(quoted from post at 11:28:59 02/09/18)
The pitting is mainly in the middle instead of at the upper bushing and lower bushing/bearing ends. I did have some wiggle there so I know there is wear.At any rate, I'll have to live with the spindles for now money wise.
What is the up/down spindle play supposed to be?
(Just the thrust bearing on the bottom, and a felt washer between the steering arm, and the knee to keep dirt, and other junk out)

I always thought if there ain't grease coming out, keep pumping until it does. I'll double check that those zerks are taking grease.
I'll check the pivot when I'm done with the bearings/seals and get the axle hubs back together and report back.
What kind of play should I be looking for?
(Up, and down, the top part of the pivot bushing will wear out first, then wear into the front axle support).

What about the front pivot pin shims clearance?
Around .008?
(On the front axle pivot. fore, and aft movement the clearance isn't super critical).

The thrust washer bearing outer housing is in fact 1/2" thick but the inside has collapsed maybe 1/8" or a little better. The two halves will turn but very hard.
(The thrust bearing(s) got crushed, they must have really worked that tractor).

Do you use a bullnose center on the hub end when you chuck the spindle and then indicate it?
(The bottom, and top of the spindle shaft has a little counter sink to center it, you usually have to dig them out first).

What's the clearance from spindle to bushing supposed to be?
(Enough were it is easy to turn, but not to where you can see it wiggle around a lot. Even after you install, and ream the new bushings to fit the spindles it will still wiggle a little bit).

What kind of lathe and swing?
(LeBlonde 15" swing, 60" between centers, 1 1/2" id spindle hole).

You're doing some mighty good looking work there, nice looking bore.
(Thank you).

Massey 65 front end axle is Massey 85/88

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