Instant reverse transmission oil capacity?

I have a 1977 MF 30B, Ser. No. 9A275…,with instant reverse transmission.
My aftermarket Jensales operators manual showed the transmission oil capacity as 12 gallons. I drained the oil, changed the two filters, put in new 10 gals, and it's off the dipstick scale. I then drained like 2.5 gals and it's still at the second L of the FULL lettering past the mark, that’s like 2 times full.
I figured I may have the wrong dipstick? The dipstick information I see the online AGCO current part numbers are more detailed than my Jensales parts book. It has three different part numbers for the dipstick, and mine is then definitely not 514184M1, since that's for prior to s/n 9A272..., and my machine is 9A275...

It then boils down to two part no.'s:

one [u:654c4848f0]without[/u:654c4848f0] hydraulics (which it says holds 7- 8 1/4 gal) 1666036M91

and

one [u:654c4848f0]with[/u:654c4848f0] hydraulics. 1665962M91.

<big>[b:654c4848f0]What exactly is this "hydraulics"?[/b:654c4848f0]</big> I have an instant reverse transmission.

According to external_link the Instant Reverse holds 48quarts
here is the link
Untitled URL Link

I think the "hydraulics" means 3pt hitch. Many of these industrials don't have that. Do you have a PTO? If so be careful as it rotates both directions, according to whether you have the pedal in forward or reverse. It's necessary to have an over-running clutch between the PTO and any driven implement. Also, the specified capacity probably also includes the torque convertor volume, which would not have drained out with the rest of the fluid, so you can deduct that from the refill quantity. Are you sure you got it all drained out from the different compartments?

You can get genuine MF operators and shop manuals through AGCO.

[b:654c4848f0]re:I think the "hydraulics" means 3pt hitch. Many of these industrials don't have that. [/b:654c4848f0]

You are right. Many industrials were used as forklifts/loaders only, so what you say makes all the sense.


[b:654c4848f0]re: Do you have a PTO? If so be careful as it rotates both directions, according to whether you have the pedal in forward or reverse. It's necessary to have an over-running clutch between the PTO and any driven implement.[/b:654c4848f0]

I have PTO, and it's got an over-runnig clutch attachment.


[b:654c4848f0]re: Also, the specified capacity probably also includes the torque convertor volume, which would not have drained out with the rest of the fluid, so you can deduct that from the refill quantity. Are you sure you got it all drained out from the different compartments? [/b:654c4848f0]

I drained the differential housing and changed it's filter, there was no oil left in there.

I drained the instant reverse transmission plug, the torque converter is in front of the same case, and is interconnected. I changed the filter for that section also, and drained the oil cooler.

The only plugs I didn't drain are the side differential plugs but, I don't see where they would hold much oli, as they are only inched from the front drain plug.

I'm going to see if AGCO has the original owners manual for my year. My shop maunal is a good copy of the original AGCO, and it's like $100.

Hi again,...

I have been looking at the tractordata info, and it is just nonsense.

Look, your tractor is more or less a Massey Ferguson 165 with a 135 engine. Or, a 265 with a 240 engine. Or a 565 with a 550 engine.
All these tractors, including the MF 50, use the same centerhousing. And it takes about 28 liters or 7.4 US gallons of fluid, filled down the hole at the side of the gearleavers. This fills up the transmission and centerhousing and brakes since this is a tractor produced in 1977 when they had wet brakes. And this is for a tractor with normal 3 or 4 speed transmission with high and low in addition.

But, your tractor has the instant reverse transmission instead of the typical farm tractor transmission.
The instant reverse transmission has a smaller transmission part where the gear leavers sits, than the farm transmission. That is why it does not take as much fluid as the farm transmission, but only 6 US gallons. In front of this transmission the instant reverse part sits, with some gears and 2 clutches of the same type an automatic transmission in a car have. In addition it has a torque converter on the flywheel, and on the left side of the tractor you have a small filter, and in front of the radiator you have an oil cooler for the instant reverse transmission. And some pipes in between.
Under the instant reverse transmission you have a cover, and if you want to replace the oil in the instant reverse transmission you can open a small unbrako plug in the side of the cover and let it empty through that hole. When it is emptied you need to replace the filter on the left side of the tractor, sometimes at the side of the engine, sometimes at the side of the converterhousing/transmission, and you need to take down the entire cover under the transmission, and clean it out, and there is a screen up there you also need to either replace or clean in a solvent, or gas or something.
You can buy a new screen at your MF dealer, and I think it includes a new gasket. But, the filter on the pipe is not included in that as far as I know.

And, the oil needed for this is as I said in the Ferguson forum, 9,5 liters, or 10 quarts or in that neighborhood.

When you drain the oil from the centerhousing the oil in the transmission will not drain, there is a plug for that on the left side of the rear part of the transmission.
But, when you fill through the fillerhole at the side of the gearlevers, it fills up, and then it runs to the back end of the tractor.
And, as I said, you need to use a tractor universal oil intended for wet brakes. If not, your brakes will be gone.
They might call it hydraulics back there, but, the oil should serve as a combined gear oil, differential oil, and hydraulic oil. This means you can not use a pure hydraulic oil, because that will ruin your gears and differential.
A pure gearoil is not very good either, because it does not have the best hydraulic properties, except a GL 1 oil. And, a differential oil, can't be pumped very good, and neither of these oil can be used on a tractor with wet brakes. So, you are actually stuck with a tractor universal transmission oil.

And, as a rule of thumb, on all Ferguson and Massey Ferguson tractors from the TE/TO 20 series, and up to MF 100 series, 200 series, 500 series, 300 series, the oil is supposed to be up to so it comes running out of the bottom hole for the inspection cover where the dipstick sits.

I have no idea why Tractordata say 48 quarts. It has nothing to do with reality.
I have seen other errors on tractordata, to me it looks like there has been a conversion mistake from liter to gallons, or whatever it might be.

You mentioned if the dipstick could be wrong on the Ferguson forum.
Look, the dipstick is made of a piece or halfrod, and it goes up, and make that circle where you put your finger in, and down again a bit inside the hole. And, the markings are below that part. It is always around so if you are below minimum level, the oil does not come through the bottom cover bolt, and when it is at maximum level the oil comes out the hole. At leaast this is my experience with all the 8 Ferguson and MF tractors I have.

And, my MF 50, is no exception to this. A MF 50 industrial is the same tractor as you have, except it has either a 4 cylinder 212 engine or a 236 engine. But no more oil than your's is supposed to have, and certainly not less oil either.

I have a Jensales manual too, for a MF 50, but I do not have it with me here, so I can not control what it says about the oil figures.
But, yesterday I checked my owners manual, and that was the figures I gave you on the other forum.

Some inspection covers have the hole for the dipstick in different places, so therefor there are different dipsticks. But, the level is about the same on the tractor.

You mention that one dipstick is for tractor without hydraulics, on those the pump are removed and some have the original hydraulic cover with the holes blanked, and on others it is just a flat plate of steel over the hole where the hydrauliccover sits.
And then the other dipstick is for those with hydraulics.
Here is a clue for you.
On those with hydraulics they recommended more oil than on those without hydraulics. The figures I gave you is for a tractor with hydraulic pump.
So, if you use that figure, you are very safe if both you have a pump and if you don't have a pump.
The reason for less oil for a tractor with no pump is that the level will be stable no matter what, but if you have a pump and it pumps oil up in the hydraulic cylinder or out to an external cylinder the level inside the transmission is lower and then it can be too little oil for the gears and differential.
But, no matter if you have the pump or not, it does not harm the tractor to have as much oil as recommended for the tractor with pump. You maybe have filled a little more than you needed, but it does not harm.

I hope this helps some.

And, don't do maintenance based on tractordata figures. If you are unsure, get an owners manual from your MF dealer.

I could copy some from mine, but it is in Norwegian so it would probably not be so easy for you. Unless you are fluent in Norwegian.


Bill

[b:654c4848f0]Re: I have been looking at the tractordata info, and it is just nonsense…. And some pipes in between.[/b:654c4848f0]

Everything you stated in those paragraphs is accurate. Let me add that there could not have been any oil left in the differential housing (the center housing), because I drained it on the side, and moreover, I removed the bottom cover to change the hydraulic lift pump filter.


Therefore, if any oil was left, it would have been in the Instant Reverse Transmission oil change.

[b:654c4848f0]Re: Under the instant reverse transmission you have a cover, and if you want to replace the oil in the instant reverse transmission you can open a small unbrako plug in the side of the cover and let it empty through that hole.[/b:654c4848f0]

The cover, oil sump, has three unbrako plugs, two on the right side and one in the front middle. I only could empty the front middle one, as the other two are stuck. Looking at the drawing, it looks to me like the oil sump can be drained by any one of the three plugs. Moreover, when I removed about 1.5 gallons of the new oil from that front plug on the oil sump, the dipstick oil level went down considerable. I had put in 10 gallons and I now recently I drained out 1.5 gallons, that leaves me with 8.5 gals, the amount that you calculated is my capacity. However, the dipstick still shows as about 2 times the full mark, it’s past the second L in FULL.

[b:654c4848f0]Re: When it is emptied you need to replace the filter on the left side of the tractor[/b:654c4848f0]

I also changed the filter on the left side of the tractor, and disconnected the lines going to the oil cooler, draining the lines, and the oil cooler completely.

[b:654c4848f0]Re: you need to take down the entire cover under the transmission, and clean it out, and there is a screen up there you also need to either replace or clean in a solvent, or gas or something.[/b:654c4848f0]

I didn’t do that. The old oil was not that bad, I just had no clue as to what the prior owner put in there, so I changed all the oil, and put in the MF spec M-1127. The new oil is so clean that I can’t read the dipstick. When I do my next oil change I’ll remove the oil sump, do the screen, and get the stuck plugs out.

[u:654c4848f0]Bottom line is[/u:654c4848f0] that I'm down to 8.5 gallons and the dipstick is showing too much oil. Well, according to what you tell me, too much oil can't hurt anything, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

Hello.

Look, behind the gearleavers you have a flange connection between the centerhousing and transmission.
If you had separated the tractor there (not saying you should do), you would have seen that the centerhousing is open all the way back to the pinion and differential.
The transmission on the other hand, has a flat wall in the rear end. And, in this wall, on all the MF I have seen there is some holes quite a bit up in the wall, so when you drain the centerhousing, the oil level in front of the wall will sink to those holes, but not below.

Maybe I caused some confusion about the transmission, in the instant reverse transmission there is 3 walls. The rear wall as I have mentioned, and the front wall between the instant reverse transmission and the torque converter, and a wall in the middle between the rear and front wall. This middle wall separates the 2 parts of the transmission. At least this is how the ones I have seen has been. Both the MF 50, a 205, and a larger MF industrial. Same housing.
The part of the transmission behind the middle wall is the part where you change gears from 1 and up, often 2 + high and low, or 3 + high and low. This use the same oil as the oil in the centerhousing.
It is a long time since I had down the cover under the instant reverse transmission, but I am pretty sure there is a plug the same size as on the left side of the centerhousing in the area where the cover is that you mentioned you had opened earler... a small round cover with 3 or 4 bolts I think.
The plug under the transmission is a little more forward than the gearlevers, and should be on the left side of the tractor.

This is the regular transmission.
In front of the middle wall the instant reverse transmission sits. And on all the industrials I have had and worked on 3 in all, they have had a totally separate oil and oil system.
This is why Sam mentioned that the oil in the instant reverse transmission is supposed to be red. And it shall not show up on any dipstick. There is a plug on the right side of the instant reverse transmission, in the area where the arm for the forward and reverse lever is, the area where the plug sits is angeled upward around 45 degrees. This is supposed to be the level of the instant reverse transmission. Up until it sips out of the hole with the plug out.

The plug sizes on the left side, for draining is for a 1 1/16" in socket, hm... hope I am right now. Taken out of an old memory... lol. And I think the filler level plug for the instant reverse transmission is 1 1/16" inch too.

Hm... you make me a bit unure now, if you can drain the instant reverse transmission through all those 3 unbrakeplugs. Because, I think if you had the cover down, around 2/5 from one of the ends there is a wall up there, so if you drain something in the back of that wall I am not sure you get everything in the front out, and vice versa.
But, take this last with a pinch of salt... as I said earlier, it is so long since I had it down, and I am not at my house where I have the owners manual.
Will get back in the evening or tomorrow morning...

Bill

Thanks for that detailed description. The manual says nothing about walls/baffles, and levels holes, however, you having taken it apart HAVE SEEN. What you wrote means that I likely left oil undrained in the back part of the instant reverse, and would now account for the overfilled situation I'm in. It sounds to me like these baffles/walls and holes at the different levels, would be to keep all the oil from draining to the lowest level, and keep each section in the oil it requires.

Therefore, my oil draining, then putting in new 10 gals of oil, then draining out 1.5 gals of the new oil, and still being over the full level, would mean that I had left old oil in there. The oil is quite clean, and it does have two new filters, so, I'll just chalk it up to experience, and leave it as is.

Thanks for all your patient educating.

Hi Bill - just bougt me a MF205 and would be really
Happy for a copy of your Norwegian manuals.

Sounds like you have some deep knowledge of MF.
Just posted a question on how to remove drive shaft to loader hyd. Pump in front below radiator.

Han u help ?

Brgds
Joakim