Massey Ferguson 1104 Need Help Starting

Plow24 · Nov 1, 2016

I have a 1992 MF 1104. I just bought this and I have no idea what I got myself into. It is a 3 cylinder diesel tractor, (which is a completely new thing to me as well).

Background: The guy I bought it from said he had the starter rebuilt, but one day the tractor just decided not to start anymore. So he decided to viciously tear apart wires to find the problem. Long story short... He never fixed the problem. So he started the tractor many times by having someone pull him fast enough to pop the clutch and get it running. ( I confirmed it ran well )

Issues: ( I need it to start normally )

A. I took the starter up to auto zone and they confirmed the starter was good.

B. I have a new marine starting battery with high CCA.

Hooked it all up, turn the key and I get this ( low ticking noise I think is coming from the battery ) Regardless, nothing happens other then the ticking noise.

C. So I omit the wring in-between the battery and starter and hook it up directly with jumper cables between starter and battery. I put the negative cable right on the starter bolt as it goes into the flywheel. The positive went to the stud off the back of solenoid. Then jumped it out.

D. The motor begins to crank, I can see the fan move but it's super slow. (I can remember the previous owner telling me that the starter would not crank over the engine fast enough, that's why he pull started it).

Questions:

Could the starter still be bad, given an auto zone test? (Does the load affect the starter)?

Do I need a different battery? Voltmeter read 12.5 volts

I know nothing about diesels... So I assume it starts like any other tractor. Diesels don't build up pressure to cause binding do they?

Are the jumper cables not making a good enough connection?

Please send me your thoughts, ideas and suggestions. I would really appreciate someone's help.

Thank you

ptfarmer · Nov 1, 2016

Are you sure it's not a MF 1140 instead of a 1104?

The battery you have should do the job, the clicking you hear is the starter solenoid (clean all the battery connections). Maybe replace both battery cables with new ones.

To me it sounds like the starter is dragging, the bench test doesn't give you the whole story. Put a volt meter on the battery, and see how far the battery voltage drops when you try to crank it with the jumper cables (also feel the cables while cranking to see if they get warm pretty quick).

Plow24 · Nov 1, 2016

Yeah your right MF 1140... Got in a rush I guess.

cables don't get warm, I did check that..

What voltage is acceptable when cranking?

Plow24 · Nov 1, 2016

(quoted from post at 15:01:35 11/01/16) I have a 1992 MF 1140. I just bought this and I have no idea what I got myself into. It is a 3 cylinder diesel tractor, (which is a completely new thing to me as well).

Background: The guy I bought it from said he had the starter rebuilt, but one day the tractor just decided not to start anymore. So he decided to viciously tear apart wires to find the problem. Long story short... He never fixed the problem. So he started the tractor many times by having someone pull him fast enough to pop the clutch and get it running. ( I confirmed it ran well )

Issues: ( I need it to start normally )

A. I took the starter up to auto zone and they confirmed the starter was good.

B. I have a new marine starting battery with high CCA.

Hooked it all up, turn the key and I get this ( low ticking noise I think is coming from the battery ) Regardless, nothing happens other then the ticking noise.

C. So I omit the wring in-between the battery and starter and hook it up directly with jumper cables between starter and battery. I put the negative cable right on the starter bolt as it goes into the flywheel. The positive went to the stud off the back of solenoid. Then jumped it out.

D. The motor begins to crank, I can see the fan move but it's super slow. (I can remember the previous owner telling me that the starter would not crank over the engine fast enough, that's why he pull started it).

Questions:

Could the starter still be bad, given an auto zone test? (Does the load affect the starter)?

Do I need a different battery? Voltmeter read 12.5 volts

I know nothing about diesels... So I assume it starts like any other tractor. Diesels don't build up pressure to cause binding do they?

Are the jumper cables not making a good enough connection?

Please send me your thoughts, ideas and suggestions. I would really appreciate someone's help.

Thank you

ptfarmer · Nov 1, 2016

Me personally if the voltage drops to around 9 volts there is some sort of problem (dragging starter, or bad battery). You have a new battery so that shouldn't be a problem, getting the battery load tested would rule out the battery completely. Another thing you can do is if you can get a socket on the bolt on the front of the crankshaft to see how hard the engine turns by hand. You can also remove the starter, and using a short pry bar on the teeth of the ring gear to see how hard the engine is to turn over if you can't get to the bolt on the crankshaft. You can also have someone hold the clutch pedal down while trying to turn the engine over so you can see if the transmission, and or hydraulic system has a problem.

Plow24 · Nov 1, 2016

That tractor can be pulled started.... So does that rule out any binding issues?

When I took the starter to auto zone. They tested it, and I visual witnessed that starter zinging around quickly. It's just surprising to me once bolted back in, it becomes slower than molasses.

ptfarmer · Nov 1, 2016

(quoted from post at 08:56:18 11/01/16) That tractor can be pulled started.... So does that rule out any binding issues?

If you are pull starting the tractor by letting out the clutch pedal once it gets rolling is say it would eliminate that. I would se how hard the engine is to turn by hand. How is the oil pressure when its running? is it stable or does it fluctuate a lot?

Plow24 · Nov 1, 2016

The wiring and dash are a complete disaster at this point due to the previous owner trying to diagnose starting issues. If running, I still have no way of telling if the oil pressure is good or stable.

I can check the engine tonight when I get home.

I am also going to have my battery checked just to make sure I am good there too.

FBH44 · Nov 2, 2016

Well I don't know much, except I had a starter like that, ran perfectly in shop but not on tractor. Turned out all I had to do was ran the battery ground strap directly TO the starter mount bolt and bolt it directly to the starter flange. Fixed! I had too much resistance running through all the frame joints and corroded joints.

phil25 · Nov 2, 2016

here's a thought: Possibly the starter is good and battery also ..but when the starter is bolted in there is not enough
clearance between the ring gear and bendex gear teeth?
Is there a way to bolt the starter on slightly farther away from the ring gear, or the starter housing is made to fit?
Since the previous owner worked on it...is it the right starter?
long shots, but hope it helps.

Plow24 · Nov 2, 2016

Your suggesting the negative terminal that's coming off the battery should be ran straight to the starter with a cable?

I did find a flat braided ground wire strap that went right to the frame but it was broke. I have been using a regular car battery negative cable. Is the flat braided one more preferred or better?

I tried directly hooking the positive and negative jumper cables right to the starter last night. I think there was a notable difference but still sluggish and far from starting.

Plow24 · Nov 2, 2016

Checked voltage last night. when using jumper cables straight to the starter the voltage dropped to 11.1 volts and 10.8 roughly.

I assume thats okay?

Plow24 · Nov 2, 2016

Good points...... I don't honestly know if this starter is correct or not. I just assume that it was. I don't know how to go about finding whether it is correct or not.

My starter part number is S114-371

Can a starter be good bench tested..... but fail when under a load?

I checked the battery again last night and it checks out at 900 CCA. So the battery is good!

ptfarmer · Nov 2, 2016

(quoted from post at 05:24:13 11/02/16) Checked voltage last night. when using jumper cables straight to the starter the voltage dropped to 11.1 volts and 10.8 roughly.

I assume thats okay?

That's about normal (where I like to see it). I use the regular cables you get at the auto parts stores. I get a ground cable long enough to run from the battery to one of the bolts that holds the starter to the engine/transmission. Measure how long the cable needs to be, the shorter the cable the better.

The MF part number for the starter is 3704203M91.

Did you try turning the engine over by hand? If you have to put a mechanical oil pressure gauge (any auto parts store should have a universal one) on it to where you can see it while you are in the seat, and pull start it to check the oil pressure. If the needle on the oil pressure gauge fluctuates rapidly you have a bearing problem inside the engine.

rockepg · Nov 2, 2016

So if the starter was to close to the flywheel then you would get a loud whining noise when you try and start. Very similar to a straight cut gear drive. Jumping the starter straight off the battery with jumper cables will eliminate any bad grounds or wiring issues. I have seen plenty of starters test out good on the bench but fail under load. All it takes is a cracked brush or weak coil to do it. I would verify you have the right starter for that engine. Diesels take a bigger starter to crank that kind of compression and the problem could easily be masked by a gas version. Other thing to try is take the belt off and crank it. If the alternator or generator is shorted internally it'll cause a heck of a drag on the motor when trying to start it.

Plow24 · Nov 2, 2016

The previous owner did install a new alternator, with a new belt. So it's possible that the alternator is hanging up the cranking? I might pop that off tonight and see what happens...

FBH44 · Nov 3, 2016

I found that starter cables did not do the job, but the biggest flat wire woven cable did.

rockepg · Nov 3, 2016

For short tight spaced run you can't beat a ribbon cable. For longer runs you pretty much have to use a standard encased cable. Make sure though to use the #1 cables used on trucks and do NOT use the junky #4 cables auto parts stores try and sell for import cars. You are moving way to many amps for such a small cable.

Plow24 · Nov 3, 2016

Ok good points. Thank you

Plow24 · Nov 3, 2016

I decided to take everything apart again. ( cables, starter, nuts and bolts ) I cleaned it all ( shinny clean )put it all back together got the same sluggish movement. I took the belt off of the alternator........ tried cranking...... same thing, no improvement.

I did try turning the motor over by hand through the flywheel.... It's doable.

It's almost like, on the compression stroke of the engine the starter has a hard time. Because I do notice the starter is a little fast then slow, little fast then slow etc... if that makes any sense.

If I am bypassing all wiring harnesses, I shouldn't have to worry about any safety switches being flagged right. I have the tractor in neutral and the clutch depressed all the way in, That's it.

I'm losing patients.......

rockepg · Nov 3, 2016

Have you verified you have the correct starter for that engine?

Plow24 · Nov 3, 2016

Just did... It's the right one.

I'm thinking about going out and buying a new one today. At least this would eliminate the bad starter idea.

Plow24 · Nov 4, 2016

Well I bought a new starter yesterday. "it was suppose to be an exact fit" Unfortunately, the starter is made a little bigger which makes it rub on my steering linkage. It does bolt up, but I think it's not shimmed correctly. When I hit it with power it made a whining noise that I had not heard before. I am not going to shim it only because it does not fit right anyways.

I am completely stumped....... and have no idea what the heck is happening. Or how to proceed forward

rockepg · Nov 4, 2016

Yes that whine is what i was talking about a few posts ago if the gear is to tight on the flywheel. Besides the case hitting the linkage did the motor spin faster? Fast enough to start?

Plow24 · Nov 4, 2016

In comparison I would have to say yes.... maybe a little faster. But it was defiantly binding. Not even close to starting......

I removed it before I chewed anything up... So I can try and return it.

Honestly... what else could it be? I can't assume it's something internal because it runs fine when pull started.

Not sure on this one.

rockepg · Nov 4, 2016

Well if you are pretty confident that something is dragging then there isn't many options. You have unhooked the belt and removed all the accessories from turning. You have tried to start with the clutch pushed in and transmission in neutral which should eliminate anything there. When it is running does it shift ok? Any grinding or lurching when you put it in gear with the clutch in? If not then it's a reasonable assumption that is ok. Only thing you have left is the engine itself. Two things come to mind. You said oil pressure gauge doesn't work which is disturbing. Someone else had recommended getting a mechanical one and plug it in which is great idea. Need to see what your oil pressure looks like with it running. Can you get a socket on the front of the crank? I know it's probably a bit of work but it would be worth pulling the injectors to eliminate compression and turn the motor by hand. Should turn pretty easy at that point. I would start with the oil pressure though as it's much easier.

ptfarmer · Nov 4, 2016

Put a oil pressure gauge on it like I suggested, pull start it, and watch the oil pressure. I'm thinking you might possibly have to go into the engine to find the problem (as much as I hate to say it).

Massey Ferguson 1104 Need Help Starting

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