MF 205 Industrial - Instant Reverse w/Torque Converter

I'm trying to figure out a problem with my Instant Reverse trans w/Torque Converter and was wondering if someone with knowledge could answer a question:
Is the sump plate supposed to have two openings or flow channels between the two reseviors to allow trans oil to pass through?

Someone ground two channels in my sump plate, probably for flow purposes, then they were welded back closed. I can tell it wasn't factory, because the grinder hit another spot just a little, so I know it was custom done. Then, someone welded them back up. I'm just wondering because I am trying to figure out a problem with instant reverse. After it warms to working temperature, it takes a long time to go either forward or reverse. Once in forward in reverse it has lots of power and does not slip. When the oil is cold, it goes into forward or reverse immediately and has lots of power. I'm wondering if it is heat related, or something with the oil distribution manifold, maybe with the control valve or two regulator valves, but I don't know at this point. I did replace the clutches in the clutch plates already, so those are good. This problem existed the same before and after I replaced the clutches.

If someone could answer my one question above that would be great...thanks.

I can't help you with your problem but I have a 205 Industrial also and mine wants to creep forward when I release the pedal and when I am backing up and put the brakes on it wants to keep backing up. I suspect that there is something wrong with the plates in the reverser as it sat for a long time before I got it.
Anyway my question is how much of a job is it to rebuild the reverser and how expensive is the parts?
I can use it okay the way it is but I would like to fix it if it is not too costly.

I don't know the answer to your question on the sump. Have you cleaned or replaced the transmission filter and fluid? I did this on my 205 using new automatic transmission fluid and my drive problems went away.

Larry

Sound to me like a charge pump problem, but you need to get a workshop manual for the tractor, and go thru the test procedure, step by step.
The correct procedure in testing the pump pressure, as well as the upper and lower regulator valve settings is important, as this will pinpoint the problem, without "barking up the wrong tree", as we say here in Australia.
This website will probably have a manual that will suffice, if not, get a genuine manual, as these go into greater detail on testing and repair,
my two cents worth,
Evan.

On late model tractors the rear-end was bored to let the transmission oil flow through to the torque convertor.and used super universal 15/40 oil. this oil was heavier and with a larger resevoir of oil probably didn't heat up so much. this was a modification done here in the UK. also check your flow to the oil cooler and the airflow through the oil cooler, could be the rad is blocked with dust etc.

On late model tractors the rear end was bored to let the transmission oil and the torque oil all become one and used super universal 15/40 oil. This caused a larger oil resevoir and probably ran cooler,this was a mod carried out on nearly all torque tractors in the UK. also check your oil cooler flow and make sure it has no restriction to the oil or airflow through the cooler

Thank you for all your imput.

I went to wrecking yard this weekend to try and find a sump I could look at. I found one that looked identical to mine. It had the hole for the sump tube that goes to the oil distribution manifold, one resevoir for the clutch area, and one resevoir for the trans area that has the gears. There was no flow channels in it.

I remember seeing bore holes in the back of the trans that allow the rear end fluid to join the trans gear area. BUT, I believe the only way the flow can go from the trans gear area to the clutch area is perhps through the bearings.

I'm guessing they kept the areas separate due to clutch wear entering the fluid and perhaps they didn't want the dirter fluid going into the rear end that has the internal hydrolic pump.

The clutch pack area fluid goes into the oil distrubition manifold, torque converter, through the filter, and through the trans oil cooler...not in that area mind you.

I do have a workshop manual, for 203/205 industrial line...this show all the different transmissions (including my instant reverse/torque converter/clutch pack setup), perkins ad3.152 overhaul, rear end differential, and brakes.

However, there is no test procedure for the three regulator valves (one block valve (10 lb), and two 80 - 160 lb) other than testing the spring compressions...which I've tested and they are within spec. I wouldn't rule out some issue with the pump at this point...I will see if I can find a better manual with a test prodedure you are reffering too...thanks.

I will check/change the filter, change the fluid...it is a little dirty anyway, and my Dad suggested have a radiator shop check the flow through the cooler...he said he had a radiator/cooler on his old pontiac that had developed a problem...he had the radiator/cooler cleaned by a shop and that fixed his problem, so maybe my cooler is having a flow issue.

I can understand the modification for the fluid flow from the rear end to the clutch/torque converter area...I'll see if I can test these other ares before going that route.

I'll also look for the 15/40 super universal trans fluid as well. Right now I'm running universal trans fluid equivalent to M1129A (perma tran III).

Thanks again for all the comments, and please let me know if you all have any other suggestions to try.

OK, I changed the fluid and filter. The filter is called a Torque Coverter filter, or Oil Cooler filter.

I also checked the radiator and it was blocked...so I took both the radiator and oil cooler off and cleaned the fins well and bent some back straight, then when it was put back together, the air flow was real strong.

I'm still using the UTF fluid at the moment because that stuff is expensive, but will go that route to 15w40 if need be.

The filter that came out was in fact pretty dirty and was an element type...I think. It looked like very dense felt, sort of like an osmosis filter, no metal or anything on it, just a tube shape, not closed at one end.

The new filter was closed a one end, had a large hole at the top, and the filter was like like a metal screen that was reinforced with wrapped metal with small holes.

So after I drained and changed the fluid in both the clutch area, trans/rear end, now the tractor won't go in forward or reverse.

I remember this happening to me before, and I just had to prime the trans oil pump. I did this by pushing the pedal forard and reverse a bunch of times (maybe 20 minutes or so) until finally whatever had to happen to get everything working again, happened and the tractor would go in forward and reverse.

I'm still in the process of priming the system and have not got it to move yet. It acts like it wants to move, but hasn't fully engaged either way yet...I'll keep trying.

Also, I was reading in my manual that the very top regulator valve that goes into the valve block had a 10 lb spring and a valve...this was replaced in later models with backpressure created from the filter and oil cooler which mine has. The manual says this keeps an adequate supply of oil in the converter at all times.

I was wondering if since I changed the filter from the element type to a screen type if this would decrease the backpressure and I am no longer getting adequate oil to the converter? I don't know yet, since I haven't got the system primmed yet.

Also, Evan, I have a manual which I thought was "genuine." Do you know what I can look for to see if it is genuine or not? The reason I ask, is because if it is genuine and the test procedures for the oil pressure and regulator valves aren't in it, I was wondering if these test procedures exist for this model or where they common knowledge among mechanics back in those days?

I'm wondering if the charge pump problem isn't the culprit?

OK, I just got it working and it seems to be working good.

I called a service guy and asked him a few questions and he said it sounded like warped friction plates that when hot cause the clutch packs to stay engaged when not pressing on the pedal, which also decreases system pressure, or he said it could be that the system pressure is too low when hot. I'm guessing that would be caused by worn out parts (pump, oil distributor manifold, possible warped friction plates in the clutch packs).

So he said what you can do is add shims to the regulator valves. On the left side of the trans bell housing there are two plugs. Remove the plugs and there are springs in each, a small metal rod and valves. He said add shims to each plug thereby making the spring press harder against the valve.

He also said in the bell housing there is a small copper or brass line that runs from the oil distributor manifold to the top of the transmission. I remember seeing and removing this line when I repaced the clutches back in 2001. He said that is the test line. What you do is attach a gauge somehow to the plug that is at the top of the trans, behind the steering stuff. Then remove one of the regulator valves, spring and rod, either to top or bottom first, doesn't matter. Put the plug back with the guts removed. Then start the tractor and press on the pedal, one side of the pedal should have a reading to it. The total system pressure of a MF 205 industrial should be 150-160 psi. When you have one of the vavles removed, you should read ONE HALF total system pressure when pressing on one of the pedals. (The regulator valves work like this, one is for the forward and the other for reverse...I haven't figured out yet which one works for which). If the pressure is lower than 1/2 total system pressure (or 80-85 psi for the one valve) then you shim the valve that you are testing...the one that is currently in the tractor that give a reading when pressing on that particular side of the pedal. The shims are 3/32 thick.

He said add one shim (with tractor off), than test again and keep adding shims one at a time until you get a pressure reading of 1/2 total system.

Then repeat for the other valve. I'm guessing there may be a possiblity that they could require different numbers of shims to reach the 1/2 total pressure, so I would guess it is sort of crucial to use a gauge or you might end up over doing it on one of the valves and then blow seals, etc.

Anyway, I hope this test procedure helps someone else.

Also, if you have the problem of the tractor continuing to go forward (or reverse) after taking your foot of the pedal, it could be warped friction plates in the clutch packs.

Lastly, if your loose forward or reverse or both on the tractor with the instant reverse transmission, try shimming the system, BUT TEST IT WITH A GAUGE SO YOU DON'T BLOW THINGS APART.

One more thing, after I drained the trans oil, and replaced, I had to prime the system for a while which was pushing on the pedal (forward and reverse) and hold for a few seconds before switching back and forth. I asked the service guy if he had to do this and he said no...if you have to do this, this could be becuase your fluid level was too low (which mine was not) or your system pressure is too low...so shim it.

Evan, I think this may be what you were talking about...thanks for the help, and to the rest who replied, thank you as well.

I recently bought a 205 2wd. the plate on the bottom of the compartment that holds the torque converter is missing and transmission fluid leaks out of there pretty quickly while its running. I can see the remnants of a gasket on the area and inside looks very clean. Is there supposed to be oil in this area? I just figured I would ask before I split the machine and try to find the source of the leak