2Q's for MF 202 - Lift Hydraulics & Rear Tires

Q1: [b:ac1d596157]Having before assisted with but never personally dismantled a cylinder, to make doubly sure, the cap on the lift cylinder is turned LEFT to remove?[/b:ac1d596157] The outer rod seal on the left is shot to hell...leaked out the rest of the fluid all over the trailer while unloading the tractor after getting it home...finally.

Q2: [b:ac1d596157]With current tire size of 14.9"-24" on a 13" wide rim, what other sizes still "safe"? ie 13.6-24??[/b:ac1d596157] Somewhere on here I saw someone asking about a 17"+ on their 13-wide rim but they were being told about the uncertainty of the bead holding. Sadly used tires seem to be a needle in a haystack in my neighborhood...and though I'll go with new rears if I must...I'll never see my money's worth out of them. So far the only 14.9-24's are no good. [b:ac1d596157]Knowing what other sizes are applicable would help in the search.[/b:ac1d596157][/b]
 
Okay...moving on. Got the ram apart...the outer seal the PO had installed it backwards (spring side out) so no WONDER it leaked like an sob. Would've anyway since the seal wouldn't hold back the pump pressure without popping out of place even if new.

[b:5280797acd]I need to know what is a good online source for the 202 front loader hydraulics. external_link any good?[/b:5280797acd] Also, the parts for the TO35 loader the same as the 202? Locally isn't going to cut it since they need details on the frame model that are no longer possible to find. The only local part for the cylinder I can get is the dust seal since that's merely a matter of getting one with correct out//in diameters.
 
You can post this question on 'implement alley forum' too, and if you can post some pictures, maybe someone can get a guess-ta-mate of you loader. Neither of my Davis's still have an id tag either, seems like that is the first thing to get squashed. Glad your rams came out ok.
I wouldn't go any smaller than 14x24, anything bigger than 16 would either hit the loader frame or get spaced too wide to fit on a trailer.
This is my '58 202 just coming back together
mvphoto18485.jpg
 
Will get some pictures tomorrow...too late here to get any images.

Going to go into the equipment shop...with the entire cylinder this time...to make sure they know what I'm talking about. Can only guess they probably think I'm after a complete rebuild kit when just the internal seals (looked like the remnants of O-rings).

[b:e981eb07c2]For the tires then 13.6 or 16.5 would be the workable limits as alternates?[/b:e981eb07c2] Have never seen 14s but will keep an eye out anyway.

I've got 1 possible local lead for used tires...and 2 maybes...so if the [b:e981eb07c2]13.6[/b:e981eb07c2] and [b:e981eb07c2]16.5[/b:e981eb07c2] (I'll double check the clearance on the tractor for the latter) are the min//max it will certainly help with finding a pair of shoes.

NOTE: As of this post a second set of eyes from a guy I'm in regular contact with via Yahoo that lives in Bristol, UK found a loader that looks identical to mine (though mine clearly has had repair welding work in the past). The loader is more than likely an MF100. Hopefully this might help to get the parts I need now.
 
I would check out surpluscenter.com for hydraulic parts, I've ordered from them a few times and they seem to have reasonable prices and most of the parts I needed. As far as the 202 and the 35 loaders being compatible.........eeeh, I thought so but it depends on which model you have. My 35 came with what I think is a Davis 99 (might be a 101)loader while my 202 has a 102 Davis. The 99 is made with much lighter material and the size of the fittings may be different as well as the size of the pins. They look virtually identical but as I found out they are not quite.
 
I'll check the place out. Thanks.

Good news in another dept though...a finger crosser anyways...might have my tire problem solved for now. On the roadside of the fence...and an 1/8th mile from home saw a rural neighbor (has a CASE gannon//tractor and lives 1/2 mile up and about another over. His truck was overheated and since and I lived less than a minute away...I had some spare jugs of water, then got to talking. Turns out he's got a couple 16.9s by 24. Sun beat but good sidewalls and 50%+ tread with the worst of the pair having a index-finger sized hole near the tread//sidewall joint that came off his rig. Good chance could be patchable but could also go with tubes anyway. Though he's been offered before for the tires...the price he gave me is 2 30-packs of Coors. What the hell...going for it. If it works out saves me from hunting...if not...I follow up as I have been with only minor loss.

Couldn't come at a better time since some of the credit union loan I'd gotten to get the tractor had to be tapped into to for the labor to pull our well...which took the worst time to die on us.
 
Grr my reply ended up as a new post: As promised...
That's the last time I change the subject bar in a reply. Elsewhere it just adds a title to the reply...not a new topic.

These are the images of the lift cylinder in question...unless I'm wrong in the terminology. It's the one responsible for raising the left loader arm.

1st image is the offender.
z6m8.jpg


2nd image is where the focus is now.
p8xy.jpg

The outer dust seal has been removed...and already have the replacement. That inside groove where it looks like the remnants of a seal and a fat O-ring, these are the parts I need. As I don't know the exact name of the part it hampers the search.
 
Now that you have it apart it might be good to take the whole thing to a machine/hydraulic shop. They likely have what you need right on the shelf or in the bin.
 

I live in a bad area for such places. Long drive across the state to reach them. I'm told that "in Phoenix" there is a hydraulics place, but not given any names//numbers. Guess I need to grill the Bingham Equipment rep about it then...or hopefully he can at least turn up with repair kits since I have a loader model to give now.

Money for repairs is limited at this time, so I'll settle for seals in the interim. I'm just thankful that appearances aside the tractor seems in fair shape and that tires (my biggest concern since it would've been the BIGGEST outright expense) option has turned up.

NOTE: Out of curiosity...WHY oh WHY does the shift pattern on the transmission seem line an oxymoron since the left-hand lever by the steering wheel appears to be the Forward Reverse control...with quizzically...lever UP being reverse and DOWN being forward. With that lever centered, the tractor is clearly in neutral even if the shift stick is in gear.
 
I have never ordered seals etc. online as I have never figured out how to properly measure them. We have a few shops around that have a good assortment of parts so I just bring things there to be matched up.

As far as the shift pattern, I never really put two thoughts into it. I'm sure it's just how things worked out with that particular transmission configuration. After using the tractor for awhile you won't even think about it, your brain will automatically tell your hand what to do, even if it seems backwards now.
I've driven some cars that were like that, reverse being up to the left instead of down to the right.
 
Do you have a 'shuttle shift'? Ok, now we need pics of that stuff too. That's a nice industrial option.
Do you ever check out 'you tube'? There might be one or two out of 100000 people who made videos about hydraulic cylinders. That O ring and seal might be all that's there. Just ask in any heavy equip shop near you, anyone who owns a fleet of dump trucks would know of a source of parts. You could use reading material on these things... or start wearing out you search engine- ask.com etc.. and again, you tube..
Hey if you didn't bring that guy 2 30 packs of beer for those tires, let me know where he is, I will buy him good beer! Like Carling Black Label... isn't that right Inno????
Argh, that's made by Coors nowadays too....
 
If it has shuttle shift or instant reverse then it's either another "Franken-Fergie" or it's not a 202.........Although if it were a 204 the instant reverse is on the pedals.........yeah, we need some pics.
I think maybe he's referring to the fact that to put it in reverse you have to move the stick to a forward position. I can't tell you how many times I have thought my 202 was in reverse and it turned out to be 2nd gear........even did some damage to the barn one time. My shifter is pretty worn out though, recently it's started popping out of reverse on me.

Regards finding useful info on the internet, it's still out there but it seems to be getting harder to find. Google etc., because of the way it's designed, puts all of the payed info. first so you have to sort through all the stuff you don't need just to find a link that might be of some use. I've noticed it getting worse just in the last 6 months to a year with some electronics I've been working on.
Don't know if I've ever enjoyed a Black Label Tony, I'm more of a bud light guy, used to enjoy Labatts Blue but that stuff gives me headaches now. Learned long ago that I need to reserve the beer for after the work is done as it's not exactly performance enhancing.
 
Don't think its auto-reverse//forward. That lever can be in either position for F/R select, but the transmission must be in gear (ie 1st) to begin moving...of course with L or H selected. Found out that much while trying to load the thing. Won't know for absolutely sure how it all is setup until I can get tires on the tractor (and fix the lift system) and drive it a bit. Also if the tractor isn't a 202 then someone went through the trouble to use authentic looking rivets to put the label from another on it.

Have been hunting ebay since I paid for the tractor (as of that time still had to recover it) for material on it. I have one on the 35 which for many things is still useful (no loader info though) given the 202 is just a modified version otherwise. Found a parts book for the MF100 Loader though...or at least one very similar to the design of mine (did a photo search and tractors claiming to have those, the arm lift cylinders looked identical), so will be getting it as well.

Just found out today from a co-worker (same dept...works on the other side of the county at one of our other parks), that what I'm looking for is the internal wiper seal..in pairs. In the image shown on here I only guessed by appearance that 1 of those being an O-ring while the other is no longer ID-able. Unless fat O-rings were used like that. At this point this is the only thing holding me up then.
 
I'm trying to think of what you might me talking about. A 202 should have 2 shift levers, one longer one in the middle in between your knees which selects reverse or forward gears 1, 2, 3 and a shorter lever to the right of the main one which selects high range, low range or neutral. Low being fully forward, high being fully rearward and neutral being in the middle. Anything different and we NEED to see pictures.
 

Nothing different about the sticks on the transmission. It's the one up under//near the steering column.
n1ri.jpg

Originally when attempting to load the tractor I had put the tractor in gear...Low in 1st...but wouldn't move. Then saw that lever...moving into its UP position (Forward on tractors like CASE)...it tried to go in reverse. Moving the lever DOWN makes it go forward.
The shaft of that lever goes down and angles over where it operates an arm that goes into the transmission to the right of the L//N//H selector. A bit hard to see because of the way the sun casts its shadow.

PS...think I got a line on the parts for the cylinder...ugh how nice it would be if could get the parts as-needed and not as complete kits. Oh well. I have an exploded diagram now (3 different types apparently) of the cylinders used on the loader...of which its one of 2 (each has a different amount of internal rod seals) be if comparing images to whats seen in the cylinder nut. Going to have to pull the rod and count the number of washers//seals to make sure I get the right one. The place gave me the numbers to call the supplier direct so as to not have to pay the 45% price bump if THEY ordered for me.
 
It's really hard to tell from the picture but it looks like that extra lever (to the left of the steering wheel for those who can't see it at first like me) might me something homemade. Maybe a primitive quick reverse. I've never seen one like it. I am intrigued to be sure. I like homemade engineering. Might need some more pictures :)
 
Looks like the system on our MF30 industrial with manual and F/R
shuttle, just a different lever setup up top. Maybe an early version?
Or maybe someone swapped tranny's along the way and home
engineered it. Hard to tell from that photo, but looks to be missing
the shifter boots. Should be still available through AGCO.
 

Boots are there...whats left of them anyway after the sun's had its way. If nothing else its nothing a section of old bicycle tire tube and a couple hose clamps cant cure (as long as there is a lip on the transmission side to get a bite on).
You may be right...possible then the transmission was swapped at some point during the last 50 years. I know that lever MUST be in forward (down) or reverse (up) position for the tractor to move. I'll take a closer look at it though it doesn't look homemade...then again a good enough fabricator can make a homemade part look like something from a factory.

Will get some more pictures up of it however.

Any-who today (as of this post) in about 20min...be picking up those "beer" tires. After that its pulling the lift cylinder rod and practice my counting skills of seals//rings to be sure I order the right kit. Hmm, just for the info...[b:d4f88c4dbe]did all 100 Loaders have the filter on the outside of the tank (some searches had this) as well as behind the grill by the pump?[/b:d4f88c4dbe]
 
Nope, mine just has one behind the grille on the suction line to the hyd. pump. I am told this is NOT the way to do it, having a filter on the return line to the tank is how it should be done.
 
Asked about the filter (i think thats it) placement only because some images I saw looked as if it were attached on the outward face of the right loader pillar (below the controls)...vulnerably placed. Image is from this site too. http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=609973
But that ones on a different year//model tractor.

Speaking of which I'm going to end up replacing the canister for the filter...any recommendations on where//which one to get? The fluid that spewed out the bad cylinder seal was almost black....but WAS hydraulic. Am told that some people would use motor oil (even used motor oil) in the hydraulics...or transmission fluid in some cases...without major issue. Would probably ruin current equipment doing that. I've no intention of trying those...I'll go with straight hydraulic...after I drain the system to put fresh stuff in. [b:aae3a33768]As for the fill point...that would be by removing the piece mounted on the right loader pillar?[/b:aae3a33768] Kinda resembles an outsized...floor-mounted dimmer switch...the breather cap does anyway.

EDIT: Took a closer look at that topic mentioned about the loaders. It says the 100 has 1 bucket cyl...and the 200 has 2 bucket cyls. My loader has 2 bucket cylinders...unless this was a change made later by a PO...[b:aae3a33768]will this have a considerable impact on ordering the seal kits for the lift rams?[/b:aae3a33768]
 
Yes, the fill point is where you think it is. It is a small opening, you need a small funnel and it does take awhile. Not the greatest design.
As far as the loader, really need to know which one you have. The loader on my 202 is a 102 Davis. In the same series is the 99 and the 101. The 99 has one dump cylinder, the 101 has two and the 102 has two but is heavier duty. You might have something else on yours. I have the literature on the 99, 101, 102 series in PDF format. I'm on vacation right now but when I get home on Thursday I can email them to you. I also have owners manuals for the tractor itself and for the 220 backhoe. I'm thinking many of your questions could be answered by the books.
 
Just take the top of that big jug off, and start cleaning. There might be a 'sock' .... a slug of tee shirt material in there with a plugged up screen can... I still haven't dealt with the cotton thing, but the screen was very dirty. I doubt there is another filter, except maybe a screen in the 4 way valve body??? There's a can of worms...
So far... you haven't had any bad luck at all!
a119530.jpg
 
He hasn't had any bad luck......he also hasn't done much to it yet. Not that I am wishing him bad luck bt it seems that there is always something that needs to be serviced, fixed, welded, tightened, loosened, adjusted, replaced, rebuilt or otherwise messed with on these old tractors......but it's worth it in the end. :? :?
 
Exactly. Don't want to get into the middle of something (running wise) until I can get the seals for the lift ram. Found a manual on ebay for it...so may hold off on ordering until I get it...but will still pull that rod to count the # of parts to match it to the kit# I've been supplied just in case one of those is the one I want.

Yeah any info on my potential loader will be appreciated. Given the lack of any ID marks on it by a PO paint job doesn't help one bit. I know its a 100ish but that's it, and having 2 bucket cyls would mean then, like you said, is the 101 or 102. It's possible that by giving the guy behind the desk 100 for the model, the result (showing 3 different exploded views of the rams), was for those 3 versions.

ATM I'm in the info-gathering stage...with the only real exception being the tires dept. Picked those up yesterday and gave them an internal rinse. Today will check on them to see if the rest of the dirt (now mud) has settled into the pool I left in them while propped up against a wall.

I better not end up with any bad luck...can't afford bad luck.

EDIT: May not be relevant since the buckets are removable, but did the 101 loader by chance have the smaller bucket, little wider than the front-wheel base? While the 202 was larger at 6ft-ish?
EDIT 2: Found manual for the 101//102 Davis on the 202 Work Bull.
 
I dunno... too hot to think about what you and Inno are hashing thru... I know mine was build for 2 smaller cylinders than the one hacked up one there now.... it is a 102.
but here are some more pictures from today, for some strange reason nothing went wrong or difficult. I did have to change the union? nipple? between the pump and the filter, it needed to be 'pipe thread' and the old one wasn't, so not leaking anymore -finally.... and brazed up the exhaust pipe to manifold without blowning myself up... that was good too... now for the worn out spindal and brand new tie rod I squished putting the loader frame back on.... I need a beer...
mvphoto18582.jpg


mvphoto18583.jpg


mvphoto18584.jpg


mvphoto18585.jpg


mvphoto18586.jpg
 
There were a number of different options for buckets, the literature I have shows them all. I believe that they all fit on all the loaders but I can not confirm that. The bucket on mine is somewhat narrower than the rear tires which makes it a pain in the rear for plotting snow.....something tells me that won't be an issue for you.
:wink:
 
(quoted from post at 22:54:46 06/23/13) snow.....something tells me that won't be an issue for you.
:wink:

In the northern part of the state that is another story.
But snow? Here where I live? A cold day in Hell...
 
Okay, while I wait on one of those manuals, I figure I'm just as well off asking here about which loader I appear to have. Disassembled with images is sure to help. Got the rod out of the cylinder and it has 4 piston rings.
wh62.jpg


In the printout that Bingham gave me for the 100 Loader, it has the diagrams for 3 different cylinders.
4gr6.jpg

2 of them initially match since the nut has 4 pieces to go into it...seals and rings. 2nd & 3rd.
What confuses me is that in that the parts list that went with the print out of the diagrams...it includes O-rings on the cylinder rod...I saw none. Whichever one I have has 4 metal cylinder rings only on it...as you can see while all are numbered according with O-rings.
 
Thoughts? Either I have the wrong initial diagram reference or someone forgot some rubber rings on the pictured piston end.
 
Only suggestion I have is look up the loader on agcopartsbooks.com and see if you can find someone closer. It is for the exact same reason that I have never tackled a hyd. cylinder rebuild, too many things that I don't know about them and what could potentially cause them to leak and or bypass. Need to learn soon though as my backhoe is in desperate need of some help.
 

Rebuild...insofar as the seal in the nut. Found 2 possible leads on parts. Both are closer than the Phoenix options...both are in the same town about an hour's drive away. Got to one too late to hear much so will check back tomorrow. If nothing turns up with either I guess I'll just have to see if they can MAKE the seal...I know some places do that. The rest of the cylinder is fine.

Sadly not knowing what model (for sure) the loader is doesn't help.

Is the 100 Loader a separate model from the Davis 101//102?

Grr...heat-rotted old rubber.
 
I'm home now, too tired to look up the information for you but tomorrow I'll have some time.
This might get you started. Here's the page from Agco for the 100 loader
http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/Viewer/book.aspx?book=agco/651132
They used to have the 101 and 102 listed but now I can only find the one for the 99 Davis loader.
http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/Viewer/book.aspx?book=agco/651054
 

For the 101//102 missing. Was told at Bingham that 2 of the 3 kits for the 100 were discontinued...might have something to do with it...idk. Though still have those numbers to call regarding them.

Will look through what those links give...if can get them to load proper. But if I put in L100 in it it will give me results.

Did receive in the mail that first manual on the 100 loader...some of the diagrams are a spitting image of what I was given. Just has a bit more info to include the rest of the loader//hydraulics. Just waiting on that other one that covers the 101//102.
 
Well, well, well. [b:2d3d3ff93b]On the off chance, what are the odds of a lift cylinder working proper (albeit with the "normal" leakage to be expected from old equipment) strictly with O-rings. Or cords cut to fit. [/b:2d3d3ff93b]
I think I found a place online that deals solely with those and seals in general.
http://www.oringsusa.com/html/hydraulic_seals.html
If the proper dimensions for the needed seal were known I'd probably save more than a fair share of frustration. Tomorrow...after having let that cylinder nut soak in gas to eat up the last of the old seal that stubbornly stayed behind...guess I'll play with the calipers.
By no means am I giving up the search for PROPER replacements, but if there's something that works reliably and wont blow out the instant the hydraulic pump does its thing, I'm game.
 
Nothing more dandy than [b:a327947738]deadlines[/b:a327947738]. Just learned of some coming changes coming to home...so now a search becomes a bit more desperate. No pressure huh?

On OringsUSA, sadly can't buy the PROPER seals to fix the rams unless I bought them in lots of 100 (at least I wouldn't want for spares until the rams literally fell off)...but found a combination of O-rings and cord that must be cut to fit to make my own. So it looks like I get to make good on what my dad says about how it was done back in the day...if couldn't walk into a shop and get the parts, they made their own. If what I found works, it will be inexpensive at around 15-20$ per cylinder. To fill that 5/16 groove going to need several rubbers but doable...nearly wore out my pen working it out. 5 rings and 2-3 sections of cord as the second layer since the rings will occupy only half the groove depth.

So soon as its ordered, parts arrive, installed, and tested out I'll let it be known how it turned out. Would like to think that made-to-work solutions could apply to more modern (and less forgiving) equipment.
 

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