Thermostat removal, MF165

I had a thread going... MF165 three point hitch not working. Basically I was advised to change the oil and refill with new tran/hydraulic oil. I did, and the lift pump came right back into service.

I ended up taking quite a bit of oil back out. 8 gallons as shown in the manual end up being a bit too much. The book said 8 gallons, I had 7.6 so I didn't bother checking, I just dumped it in.... anyway, rookie mistake... I learned.

I had tried the hydraulics in the garage and then I wanted to test to see if the multipower came back as well (although it has never worked since I've had the tractor). I headed out to my driveway which is slightly down hill to see if I had any engine compression. As I get on the slope the tractor starts smoking and losing power. I shut it off and let it cool down, I can hear the coolant boiling......

Anyway after it cools for a bit, I get it back to the garage.........

Coincidence???? It has to be right???? It's never overheated on me before.

I checked a few things.....

Engine oil level is fine. It feels fine as well.

I checked the level in the radiator.... it looks fine....

I guess my next step is to get the thermostat out. Looks like a miserable job.... The hood needs to come off to get at it???? Any help would be appreciated, I've got a service manual coming but it'll be another week or more shipping...

How does one check if the water pumps circulating???
 
So, turns out that changing a thermostat on a 165 is not exactly straight forward. The bolts that you need to take out are right up against the bottom of the fuel tank under the hood. Taking the hood and fuel tank off is a rather large job. I didn't want to take them right off so here's what I ended up doing.

I removed the grill and took out all the bolts holding the hood down. I also took the battery out and removed the bolts holding down the instrument panel (and hood). I propped up the hood with a broom handle.

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There is 4 bolts on vibration isolating rubber standoffs the hold the fuel tank up. I took the two in the front of the tractor right off. I loosened the two towards the drivers seat all the way without removing the nuts.

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I disconnected the two fuel lines. The supply line and the return line. Make sure to shut the fuel valve off at the tank prior to breaking the line.

Now I lifted the front of the fuel tank right up out of the bracket. I used a couple of wooden blocks to support it up off the block. I was careful not to let the wood project out to the left side too far so as to put any weight on the injectors. Don't forget, I emptied the fuel tank, so it wasn't too heavy.

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From there, two bolts to remove the bracket that the fuel tank sits on. Two more bolts on the top of the water pump to get at the thermostat.

Changed the thermostat,
Rebuilt the gasket,
Replace the bolts in the water pump housing,
Replace the bracket the fuel tank sits on,
Drop the fuel tank back into place,
Reconnect the fuel lines,

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Drop the hood back down.
Replace the battery.
Bolt everything back up.

Now before starting the tractor, remember you can have air in the fuel lines. The return line disconnects right after the last injector on my tractor. The supply line disconnects right after the valve on the fuel tank. I opened the bleeder on the first fuel filter and pumped manually until there was only fuel coming out. Since the air in the return line just goes back to the tank, that's all there was to it.

Hope this helps you save some time getting your thermostat changed!

Jamie
 
Hi Jamie,
Well done for removing the thermostat without removing the tank etc fully. Looking back, was it really worth not removing the bonnet (hood) and fuel tank fully? Removing the tank has added benefits. As the tank was already empty you could have flushed it out and checked the tap strainer at the same time. An important job that is frequently overlooked is tappet adjustment. This would have been very easy at this time. A bit of a save ,yes, but long term not so sure.
DavidP, South Wales
 
Hi David, the main reason I wasn't keen on taking the hood and tank right off was because I was alone and in a hurry because it was storming. I need my tractor to blow snow. This is admittedly the minimalist approach. I have zero experience, figuring stuff out as I go, kind of winging it I guess. I figured this might get someone out of a jam, so I posted.

Unfortunately, I've got some bigger issues brought on by the overheating. I am getting smoke coming out the breather and am leaking a lot of oil. It always dripped a bit, but its leaking profusely now. Overheating may have damaged a gasket further. Not sure what to do now...

I bought a repair manual and i'm contemplating whether or not I can tackle a rebuild on my own...

The winter's almost over and I could basically spend my summer on it. If certainly need to draw on the experience of guys like you in the forum to have a chance. I wish I could just download your knowledge :).

Jamie
 
Excessive blow by fumes are usually signs of pistons/ring failure from overheating. Sleeves will show damage too. Overheated my S90 puller on the dyno once, melted 2 pistons, stuck the rings and scored sleeves. After it cooled it started back up,lots of blow by though.
 
Hi Jamie,
Fair comment about being in a rush.
Hmmm a pity that you have more problems to contend with. Dieseltech has covered most of the potential damage that could have occurred.
Have you removed the engine oil dipstick when the engine is running? A small air/oil spray is not uncommon but if there is a specific blow of air and oil drops coming out that would confirm that compression is passing the piston rings.

Has the thermostat change cured the overheating problem? I assume that North American 165 radiator necks are the same as ours in the UK. It is not easy to look down them to see the end of the tubes and if there might be any blockage. This of course only allows a very small area to be seen. Have you used any radiator flushing product? Is there free passage of air through the rad fins. Is your water pump and fan belt OK?.

The '203 engine is almost bombproof but like everything else has a limit.

Cheers

DavidP
 
Dave P., DieselTech,

I know I wrote in my post "change the thermostat" but I actually just removed it. No intent to deceive, I guess I was just in the frame of mind for writing a procedure to "change" the thermostat. I did order one right away, supposed to be in tomorrow am. Removal did stop the overheating.

Last night I run it for 45 minutes or so. I cleaned snow. It smoked but I was able to get it done. Because it was leaking oil, I drove into the garage just to have a quick peek to make sure I wasn't low on oil. I checked the oil, took maybe 1 minute.... Went to start it up and it just "rolled and rolled", it never really "kicked". It was lots warm, of course, because I was blowing snow. It was late, I didn't feel like fighting with it so I called it a night.

Now, I made a big mistake to get to this point.... I didn't know the history of the tractor maintenance when I bought it. It worked well so I decided to run it through the winter and do a big maintenance in the spring. Well, at this point, I want to eliminate every issue I can so tonight I changed the fuel filters and gave it a brand new air filter. I bled the fuel lines (I've done this successfully before) and tried it. We were in the warm garage and I had it plugged in (block heater) for a while. It just rolled and rolled, never kicked. I had a friend with me, we went back and went through the bleed out procedure again using the users manual. We turned it over and gave it a shot of starting fluid through the windbox. It "backfired" through the windbox with each shot.... I have never heard the tractor make this noise before...

It never seemed to want to start..... It's so weird. I drove it into where it sits and shut it off. It was smoking but running ok.... Now it won't go.

Also, on the overheating, I didn't think it was that severe. I drove 50 feet in first gear, no load, just the tractor itself. As soon as I realized something wasn't right, I shut it down, let it cool before running the 50 feet back to the garage.

I've checked for fuel in the water, fuel or water in oil, etc.... No detectable cross contamination.

I'm at the end of my limited knowledge. What else can be going on. Timing is gears, it would be awful hard to get out of time wouldn't it??? If a bad valve, wouldn't it kick over on the others???

Not sure what to do. What's my next move????

I sincerely appreciate the advise gentlemen.

Jamie
 
Dave P., DieselTech,

I know I wrote in my post "change the thermostat" but I actually just removed it. No intent to deceive, I guess I was just in the frame of mind for writing a procedure to "change" the thermostat. I did order one right away, supposed to be in tomorrow am. Removal did stop the overheating.

Last night I run it for 45 minutes or so. I cleaned snow. It smoked but I was able to get it done. Because it was leaking oil, I drove into the garage just to have a quick peek to make sure I wasn't low on oil. I checked the oil, took maybe 1 minute.... Went to start it up and it just "rolled and rolled", it never really "kicked". It was lots warm, of course, because I was blowing snow. It was late, I didn't feel like fighting with it so I called it a night.

Now, I made a big mistake to get to this point.... I didn't know the history of the tractor maintenance when I bought it. It worked well so I decided to run it through the winter and do a big maintenance in the spring. Well, at this point, I want to eliminate every issue I can so tonight I changed the fuel filters and gave it a brand new air filter. I bled the fuel lines (I've done this successfully before) and tried it. We were in the warm garage and I had it plugged in (block heater) for a while. It just rolled and rolled, never kicked. I had a friend with me, we went back and went through the bleed out procedure again using the users manual. We turned it over and gave it a shot of starting fluid through the windbox. It "backfired" through the windbox with each shot.... I have never heard the tractor make this noise before...

It never seemed to want to start..... It's so weird. I drove it into where it sits and shut it off. It was smoking but running ok.... Now it won't go.

Also, on the overheating, I didn't think it was that severe. I drove 50 feet in first gear, no load, just the tractor itself. As soon as I realized something wasn't right, I shut it down, let it cool before running the 50 feet back to the garage.

I've checked for fuel in the water, fuel or water in oil, etc.... No detectable cross contamination.

I'm at the end of my limited knowledge. What else can be going on. Timing is gears, it would be awful hard to get out of time wouldn't it??? If a bad valve, wouldn't it kick over on the others???

Not sure what to do. What's my next move????

I sincerely appreciate the advise gentlemen.

Jamie
 
When tractor was shut down to check the oil injection pump metering valve may have stuck in the off position. If you can get it started again you may help free it up this way. Disconnect stop cable from lever at pump so you can work lever by hand. Start engine and set hand throttle for 1800-2000 rpm. Now slowly move stop lever toward off to about 1500, then back on quickly. Do not turn off completely as it may stick again. Repeat several times until speed picks up quickly when lever is turned on again after being shut off. I have gotten some freed up this way in the past. Have also had to completely clean and reseal some too. Just mailed out a 135 pump that had the same trouble. Good Luck, Rich.
 
Hi again Jamie,
The problems that you are having are typical where a metering valve is at least partially stuck. When you were trying to start it after changing the filters, was there any evidence of smoke coming from the exhaust? If 'no', it suggests a lack of fuel being delivered to the injectors. If 'yes' at least its trying to start but could be prevented by cranking speed too low or loss of compression.

Again, when trying to start have you slackened at least two of the injector pipe nuts at the injectors? Two or even all four should be slackened a little. Turn the engine over until fuel escapes from the nut. When fuel is present tighten the nuts and attempt to start again.

It is quite common partivularly with older tractors that once the fuel system has been disturbed to change filters for example that they present a great deal of difficulty starting the first time afterwards. Over the years I have found that the best remedy for this is to tow the tractor to start it. This of course will only work if your tractor is a non-Multi-Power.
Being towed with your tractor in top gear will generate a higher cranking speed and is normally successful. Will your weather conditions allow this? Do you have access to another tractor?
Remember that a rope and NEVER a chain should be used.

One further check is to ensure that where the stop lever is connected to the spindle going into the pump is secure. They can work loose on the flats and in effect the pump is not fully in the 'run' position whilst you are trying to start the engine.

Let us know how you get on.

DavidP
 

Hi David,

We were indeed seeing smoke from the stack when rolling it over. When we bled out the air, one of us pumped the fuel manually while the other cycles through the primary filter, secondary filter, fuel pump (two ports). We then turned the tractor on the starter motor and bled the four injectors. We went through this again as a double check after it wouldn't start.

My tractor, as luck would have it, is multipower. The multipower function has never worked. I still have hope that it may come around with the new hydraulic oil if I can get it running for a bit. I've never had compression braking on hills, it free wheels and I use the brakes as required. For plowing, usually there is enough ballast from the snow to keep everything under control..... I digress.

I made cursory checks of the linkage and function of both the stop lever (fuel cutoff) and the throttle. Both seemed to be ok..... Ill have a real good look tonight.

I did comment that it didn't sound like it was turning fast enough. I had the charger on the battery to assist. Not sure. Maybe I'll need a battery.

Ill try to start it again tonight. I'll post my results.

Not sure if this makes any sense but normally when the tractors starting I get lots of black smoke and it stinks up the garage pretty good. Last night when rolling over we got cleaner, white smoke out the stack. Maybe this is a result of clean air and fuel??? The old filters were filthy.

Thanks again gentlemen. Have a good day.

Jamie
 
Jamie,
That's bad luck about the Multi-Power. It's worth checking the MP linkage. Follow it from the hand lever to the point where it enters the transmission casing and operate it. It's quite possible that it may have seized or become bent.

Double check and clean all battery connections. Fully charge the battery and use a second battery if you can with heavy jumper leads. Attach the jumper earth clamp to the chassis (starter mounting bolts)to ensure the best possible connection. If you have a block heater you probably will not have a 'thermostart' in the inlet manifold. Might be worth checking. DO avoid using starting fluid (laughing gas) you may do more damage.

David P
 
White smoke at exhaust means engine is getting fuel but not high enough compression heat to burn properly, due to low compression and/or low cranking speed. 203 is a good starting engine IF compression is in good condition. If you have excessive blowby from vent tube I suspect piston/rings/sleeve damage. Had a 354T recently, too much either had broken all ring lands and rings. It would barely start, but when hydraulic pump kicked in it would die. Blowby fumes looked like it could have been the exhaust pipe, so much air was coming out.
 
DieselTech, David P,

I think DieselTech has the proper assessment at this point. I am getting lots of white smoke when cranking. I've cracked all the injector connections to make sure air has been eliminated. I've double and triple checked. When I cracked the lines to the injectors it squirted fuel with good pressure.

I've put my new truck battery on as a boost to give it as much cranking power / speed. It just cranks away and never really kicks. When I gave it ether it just burns through it and goes back to rolling on the starter. It makes an odd popping noise back out the windbox as it burns the ether, something i've never heard before. That coupled with the blow by leads me to suspect that compression has been degraded to the point that I can't start as you have suggested.

Are there any further tests that can be done to confirm this assessment prior to committing to a tear down?

As always, thanks for your expertise gentlemen.

Jamie
 

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