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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
Show Parts for Model:

4020 engine issue

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mattroh

04-16-2018 20:03:35




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Finally got time to tear into our 1967 4020 diesel, syncro, with a M&W turbo that I had asked you guys about a couple months ago. The general idea was that it was a piston with broken rings. Well, we tore into it and all the pistons, liners, and rings are fine and installed in the proper direction (as they came to us as "loaded" liners, with the pistons and rings already installed in the liners)

We also took the head back to the shop where it was done up 2 years ago when we overhauled the tractor, and everything checked out on it.

HOWEVER, when we removed the head, there was a LOT of carbon build up on #1 & #6 piston, head, valves. #2 & #5 had buildup, but not as much. #3 & #4 had basically no build up, the parts were just black, but no layer (up to around 1/32", not actually measured) of carbon buildup.

Before we tore it down, we plumbed shop air into one injector hole at a time to try to ascertain where any leaks would be, and we noted on a couple cylinders there was a lot of leaking out of the valves, usually the intake. So we tapped on the valve with a rubber mallet and we could eventually get it to stop leaking. We checked the springs, and they felt definitely weaker than new ones so we changed them all out. In the end we figured the leaking valves was due to the carbon buildup, but also could have been due to weak springs.

The guy who did the head rebuild suggested that the rings needed to be replaced as the buildup on the head was far more than normal and they were not seating, allowing too much oil up in the combustion area. So we pulled the pistons to look at the rings, however, the rings look good and all were installed in the correct slot and in the correct direction (dots toward the top). So we do not really see a problem with the rings, but we are not exactly experts on the subject.

Just a little recap:

Engine overhauled late 2015

New liners, new pistons, new rings, new valves, reground seats, new valve guides, new bushings on rods

Plasti-gauged main & rod bearings, all checked out on the tight side of allowed tolerance

Engine dynoed, however, PTO clutch was weak and slipped, so we could only run it around 40HP for 1hr. (yes, we forgot the linkage adjustment to tighten it) The transmission clutch has been weak for many years, but we only do light work with it so never a problem, so we knew we could not pull it to break it in fully.

Now we also have split the tractor while we were working on the engine, and fixed the clutch so that we can actually just pull it to seat the rings fully (hopefully).

What are your guy's thoughts on the rings, or what do you think is causing our oil usage in the tractor. It has run 230hrs since overhaul and we have had to add over 2.5 gallons to it in that time.

Sorry for the long post, I just want to be thorough.

Thanks,

Matt

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mattroh

04-18-2018 18:08:52




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
We have decided to deglaze the liners and put the pistons back in with the same rings, as they look fine.

Whenever the weather here in NW IA straightens out and the fields dry up, we are going to take it out and pull it hard for most of a day, at the minimum. Then we will see if actually breaking in the engine takes care of our problem along with the new valve springs.

I will post back afterward to let you guys know what happens.

Thanks for the help,

Matt

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D-

04-17-2018 16:16:55




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
Synthetic oil? You can't use it in fresh overhaul.



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Al Baker(pumpman)

04-17-2018 14:55:13




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
I have seen more than one 4020 with the MW kit on it that had the return oil line from the turbo routed wrong. This caused oil to back up in the turbo then out the pipe. This line needs to head down without any big curves or flat spots. Al



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David G

04-17-2018 09:22:13




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
The best way to find where the carbon is coming from is to look where it is not. There should be a "washed" area at the source of the excess fuel/oil. The edges of the pistons will be washed clean if the oil is coming up past the rings, same with excess fuel or oil elsewhere.



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mattroh

04-17-2018 08:51:09




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
Another question is the positives and negatives of just removing the turbo from the tractor (thus removing it as a variable), as we do not use it hard, just light duty applications.

Matt



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mattroh

04-17-2018 08:07:33




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
I checked all the 2nd rings, they all have a wear line that goes from the bottom up to about halfway up the outside of the ring.

The top rings have a wear spot on most all the surface, just a tiny line at the top and bottom that are not polished by wear.

Matt



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mattroh

04-17-2018 07:57:55




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

We checked it with it running soon after we had overhauled it, and it did not blow any oil out the outlet of the turbo on the the intake side.

There are 3 sections of pipe from M&W and then the intake manifold between the turbo and the head, the first 3 are dry but there is a light film of oil in the intake manifold (you can feel something on your finger but not see it other than your finger is a little shiny).

Also, what is the consensus on the rings, if they look good reuse them or not? We can hone the liners no matter what.

Thanks,

Matt

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ET

04-17-2018 09:10:39




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-17-2018 07:57:55  
If it was mine I would deg-laze the cylinder and reuse the rings. Those may be tricky to get back in the cylinders without breaking a ring. They come loaded in the cylinders for a reason.



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John in WVa

04-17-2018 07:12:39




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
Have you checked the turbo it can leak oil by the seal on turbo shaft into air intake. The M&W RAJAY turbo has few parts to repair turbo other than a seal kit.



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mattroh

04-17-2018 06:06:28




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I will check for that today. I did see that wear line you are talking about on the #1 piston’s 2nd ring, but I will need to check the other 5.

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

You are talking the 2nd ring can pump oil into the piston, or the oil ring (3rd ring)? We could not find any marks or anything to tell us which way the oil ring went in, leading us to believe it does not matter. However, the 2nd ring had 2 dots on it that were located on the top, as installed, on every piston.

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

We got our kit from Deere, on the recommendation of a neighbor who has done a few before.

Thanks,

Matt

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ep

04-17-2018 07:23:02




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-17-2018 06:06:28  
Yes the 2nd ring. I got educated about about the rings when I had a warranty issue. The company had a batch of that second ring that wasn't right. The engine was burning oil right from start up because those rings weren't made right. Like I mentioned before the 3rd ring is a scraper. If they look good I would be looking at the turbo as previously mentioned.



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Cliff Nelson

04-17-2018 05:55:14




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
In the time that you ran the engine, the rings have worn to seat with the cylinder walls. They may or may not have seated properly. After removing them from the cylinders, you will not be able to install them in the exact same position rotationally to seal properly. Install new rings and hone the cylinder walls then the break in process can start over. If everything else checks out the rings could be your problem anyway. I run on a dyno for 3 hours building up to full hp in 1/2 hour increments to help seat the rings. Let us know how it turns out.

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mattroh

04-16-2018 22:31:51




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Does that mean the rings have glazed and the only way to seat them now is to replace them?

Thanks,

Matt



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mattroh

04-16-2018 22:29:01




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
Yeah, I forgot to mention that we have been using Deere Break-in oil the whole time since the overhaul

Matt



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JD Seller

04-17-2018 18:57:21




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 22:29:01  
You only use the break-in oil for the first fifty hours or so. Not for 200 plus hours. That alone could be your oil consumption issue.



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M w J

04-18-2018 07:42:55




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to JD Seller, 04-17-2018 18:57:21  
I was just informed from a John Deere dealer service tech That I should run breakin oil for a 100 hours. Then drain and refill with breakin oil and run another 100 hours. 200 total. This is on a 4020 feed grinder tractor.



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tomstractorsandtoys

04-17-2018 06:48:40




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 22:29:01  
My shop is telling me that the Deere break in oil has changed. He wants me to start adding a Lucas break in additive with zinc. Tom



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ep

04-17-2018 04:54:00




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 22:29:01  
Examine the 2nd ring, there should be a a thin line all of the way around it at the bottom of it. This is the contact point where it runs against the cylinder wall. If the wear pattern doesn't go all the way around, there is the problem. This is the ring that keeps the oil from getting to the top of the piston. The bottom ring is only an oil scraper. If that ring is installed upside down it will pump oil to the top. New rings can be bad, especially some of this junk aftermarket stuff they supply us with now. The face of that ring is at a taper, you can see it if you look carefully.

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SVcummins

04-16-2018 21:29:56




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
Here’s some information on Break in oil . I put my 4020 on the dyno fot 5 hours at 112 hp when I rebuilt my engine and then took it home and put it on a moldboard plow for another 10 . I can go all year And not add a quart of oil



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JD Seller

04-16-2018 21:06:48




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 Re: 4020 engine issue in reply to mattroh, 04-16-2018 20:03:35  
Well 40 HP for an hour is not much of a break in. Did you use break in oil??? IF you put JD 15-40 +50 in it right form the start your rings never seated. If the valves/seats and the pistons all look good than I would replace the piston rings. Deglaze the liners and use break in oil for the first fifty hours of use. Try to not idle the tractor much and load/pull it if you can during this time.

I have seen oil usage like this in tractors that did not get the rings to seat in the first 20 hours or so. I usually use Dynometer to break in a new overhaul tractor. I started doing this 40 years ago when it was common to overhaul tractors during the winter slow months. Guys would take the tractors home and just haul hay out with them until spring. Then the tractor would burn oil as the rings never seated.

Big thing to watch doing is do not use a super good oil during break in. The oil will lube the liners/rings so well they will not wear in. Use break in oil.

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