Toughts on 4010 PTO

fdt860 · Feb 1, 2018

I have seen many problem reported about the 4010 PTO stub shaft coming loose.
Here are some toughts:
The bolts could be coming loose because they fatigue. I can see 2 flaws in the design of the bolted connexion: T
1) The stretched length of the bolts is fairly small
2) The use of split washers, which is not good for fatigue
If I had a 4010, I would install the the PTO shaft with longer bolts. Either 4 drilled rounds out of hard steel (I am sure such spacer can be found easy on cars, etc…), or a ring with 4 holes, that would be my preference and is fairly easy to do with a lathe.
Spacer(s) As think as possible but still allow PTO implement install.
The spacer being made of hard steel, no washer should be used under the bolt (better for fatigue application). This can be debated, but if steel is hard, softer washers are just a source of problem. Soft washers that are softer than the steel you bolt to (white washers sold at farm stores) , are for sure BAD. Very hard quality washer is debatable. Split washers are BAD for sure in this application or in general, because they break. Maybe a heavyduty bellevile spring washers would be helpful.
Then a change over to Grade 8 bolts torqued ¼ turn before they break, and that shaft should hang in there, at least must better than it did from factory.

tomstractorsandtoys · Feb 1, 2018

It really is not a bolt issue. The shaft is designed to drive from the two pins on the back of the shaft. With time the pins and the holes in the trans shaft wear some and then the shaft starts to drive on the bolts which it was not designed to. A new shaft with good bolts often takes care of the problem. We used a 4010 on a forage harvester for years and never had any problems untill once we had a bad universal joint in the harvester and that did cause the bolts to come loose. Tom

NY 986 · Feb 1, 2018

I don't think you have to go through all that. The hub setup only failed twice on ours and the time I did it I was in a hurry and flat out forgot to tighten the bolts after going from 1000 RPM for an IH Cyclo planter to 540 to cut hay. The other time happened to dad and when he gets in one of his moods he can break an anvil with a rubber mallet. What we did at the recommendation of the area JD dealer shop foreman was make two locking tabs so you bend the ear over the bolt head so it does not move. Never had a problem after that and it was soon after the second incident the Cyclo left in favor of the JD 7000 planter so no more shifting anyways. Our 4010 has been here since new and when we had dairy it ran a two row chopper and also ran a JD 347 wire baler when straw was big here in the 1980's and 1990's. Not once did the bolts break and there were times when I was younger (and dad, too) when we drove the 4010 like we had something to prove so the PTO did not get babied. If such a tractor were on a Knight Slinger day after day running pen packed manure then yes I could see changing the bolts as a preventative measure just like other maintenance things such like an oil change (maybe at the same interval). It's funny that people will cry about that PTO system but act like it's no big deal to service an IH TA via the operator's manual or over overfill the transmission sump by 5 gallons to account for an O Ring sucking air. Even today four 3/8 bolts will cost a tiny fraction of what a 5 gallon pail of HyTran runs. Our 4010 when taken care of properly has owed us nothing for quite a long time.

Ragnarok · Feb 1, 2018

Grade 8 bolts and a touch of Loc-tite seems to have made my 4010 a semi-permanent 540 rpm machine.

I did that some years ago after I had to split my tractor and do the pins. Previous owner used it as a brush-hog tractor...and I fixed/replaced the pins under his ownership. I bought the tractor a few years later and the bolts are still tight.

The 'ten series' two-speed PTO is a perfectly functional system when used properly. Things that cause the issues include loose bolts...pto drive-lines that are out of balance or don't telescope properly...not re-torqueing the bolts after swapping 540/1000 shafts(loose bolts again)

There is no doubt the 4020 style is superior tho....

SHALER · Feb 1, 2018

Yes Fdt860, I am glad you brought this up after the recent flurry of posts on the relative merits of 4010's. I do not have a 4010, but I do have a 3010 which I purchased about 12 years ago. Perhaps 6 years ago the four PTO bolts did work loose while running some piece of haying equipment, possibly a 4 basket tedder or a 9ft NH haybine, cant recall. Anyway, I guess I was lucky and no damage was done. As others have posted, I bought some grade 8 hardware and a bottle of Loctite, so yes it is basically a 540 only tractor. Big deal! No trouble since. To me it is a very minor maintenance issue to check bolts every spring. I do not see this as the fatal flaw some others make it out to be. These 4010s back in the day could be performing some heavy duty 1000 pto work like running harvesters, etc., but basically those days are gone and like the posters that have inquired about the 4010's, their pto needs are light duty.

DR. EVIL · Feb 1, 2018

NY 986..... You have Never heard anyone bash the IH Torque Amplifier on this forum? Give Me a Break!
As I've said many times here, We only used our 4010-D on the #30 combine cutting 30-40 acres of oats for two years. Dad checked those four bolts, Grade 8, Red Lock-Tite, every wagon load of oats. He put the 6 ft Brillion pull type Bush hog on it to mow some weeds, tore the bush hog up first day, twisted output shaft the blades attached to off flush with oil seal. Fixed bush hog, second day pto tried to shift from 540 to 1000. Tractor spent several days in the shop then went home with somebody else.

The Super M-TA or 450 that we had before the 4010 would have run the bush hog and combine just fine, every bit as good as the 4010, and no chance of catastrophic drivetrain disaster the 4010 had. If the 4 capscrews were so great why did Deere change to the big snapring?

The idea of the locking plate with tabs bent over is good, drilling bolt heads for safety wire also good, maybe welding the heads in place would be better.

Now if there was a cure for the weak frt hyd pump coupling and the draft bar seals in the bottom of the rearend of both 4010 & 4020.

tim s · Feb 1, 2018

I worked on 4010's that were in Full Duty, back in the old days, several things helped to loosen the stub shaft and wear on the shift pins,,back then there were not many constant velocity you joints in use ,,they were not used much till the late 70's,,this was tuff on the stub shaft,, along with poor drive shafts and dry slips, to add to the dry slips the old square shafts and the extra horse power put through them put a lot of pull on the drive line,,the newer high Horse power shafts had multi splines on them, this reduced the drag on the stub shaft as the unit came and went on turns and dips...the original stub shaft bolts were not as hard as modern grade 8 bolts, so all this unseen abuse pulled on them..to correct a lot of this damage as the tractor is older may or may not work out as well as you would hope,,here is how I deal with them,,1- if the 1,000 RPM is not needed I lock it out on the inside..2- if the 4 bolt holes have damaged threads I drill them out to 7/16" thread and use a grade 8 Allen head machine bolt to replace them (there is not enough room for the larger hex head bolt), 3- replace the dowel pins they get worn and were meant to take the brunt of the pull, 4- use a constant velocity joint as much as you can, they are pricey but they make a sharp turn less painful,5- be sure the PTO shaft slip joint it lubed...That drive line system was less than good, no question about it, but these things will help make it last a bit longer.

NY 986 · Feb 1, 2018

In your case it sounds like maybe the slip sleeve on the implement shaft was not doing its thing due to a twist or lack of lubrication. The 3/8 bolt system would be more vulnerable to a shaft not sliding as it should versus a solid 1 3/8 shaft coming out of a hub hence the change to a solid shaft-snap ring design. Poor implement PTO shafts are not unique to any farm and I can remember going to many places as a kid and hear the ring of ballpean hammer against the bell of the drive shaft shield when those were made of metal or the yoke itself. I changed several shafts out because they would no longer slide freely with lube. I've got a fertilizer spreader with that job coming up. Just wear with any implement.

Yes, I have heard TA's being bashed unfairly. It just goes with the board. On a JD board things like the TA will get bashed and on an IH board a JD 10 series PTO will get bashed. I'm not going to make a diehard IH guy like JD and I am not going to get a diehard JD guy to like IH. Just the way it is. I can find models of any brand that I like and I am not much of a Ford guy but my hat is off to the smaller 1000 series tractors and I own an 860. I have no issue with the TA system and my friend is looking for a Farmall 300 as a project of which I will help with. I've always liked the 300 among many other IH tractors.

By the way the front coupling has never been a problem but we do check the Deere's over every year on the fan belt so the pump bushings get a look. If suspect we just replace. We replaced the draft bar/ bushings many years ago with a highly recommended aftermarket kit and no problems. Just do the recommended periodic check of the shims to maintain tightness.

Perspective on brands is interesting. If as an IH guy that you want your mind blown go over to the Allis site (its own site and not here on YT). There are guys who maintain the 190XT was better than an 806 or 4020.

tlock0331 · Feb 1, 2018

(quoted from post at 09:49:23 02/01/18) NY 986..... You have Never heard anyone bash the IH Torque Amplifier on this forum? Give Me a Break! -----Why would you hear anyone on this forum bash a TA anyway, it says John Deere...you know..the ones that are still being built brand new....

As I've said many times here, We only used our 4010-D on the #30 combine cutting 30-40 acres of oats for two years. Dad checked those four bolts, Grade 8, Red Lock-Tite, every wagon load of oats. He put the 6 ft Brillion pull type Bush hog on it to mow some weeds, tore the bush hog up first day, twisted output shaft the blades attached to off flush with oil seal. Fixed bush hog, second day pto tried to shift from 540 to 1000. Tractor spent several days in the shop then went home with somebody else. ----So your 4010 was only used a couple days in two years, maybe your dad used lefty tighty righty loosey?, wait...so which is it? did it only do 30-40 acres of oats, or did he put the bush hog on it, cant have it both ways unless your tellin stories ;-)

The Super M-TA or 450 that we had before the 4010 would have run the bush hog and combine just fine, every bit as good as the 4010, and no chance of catastrophic drivetrain disaster the 4010 had. If the 4 capscrews were so great why did Deere change to the big snapring? ------- If a TA is so wonderful can you tell me where i can can get a new IH with one of those awesome awe inspiring cant fail greatest thing since sliced bread tractors? cause if they were so great they wouldnt have changed either right?

The idea of the locking plate with tabs bent over is good, drilling bolt heads for safety wire also good, maybe welding the heads in place would be better.

Now if there was a cure for the weak frt hyd pump coupling and the draft bar seals in the bottom of the rearend of both 4010 & 4020.--------They must have cured it correctly cause i do know where my dealership is...still looking for that danged IH dealership...

Toughts on 4010 PTO

fdt860

Well-known Member

tomstractorsandtoys

Well-known Member

NY 986

Well-known Member

Ragnarok

Member

SHALER

Member

DR. EVIL

Well-known Member

tim s

Well-known Member

NY 986

Well-known Member

tlock0331

Member

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