4020 Hard Starting

2510Paul

Well-known Member
The 4020 I am working on to fix the steering problem I described earlier, it starts really hard, even at 60 F in my shop. We pulled and tested the batteries, good. Connections all look good.

The starter could be suspect, the owner had it worked on this last summer. The owner feels the shop he used is good and others I trust not so much. There was a post on a 3020 about starters. I think Tim S recommended a Starter. Tim S or anyone else, can you recommend a good starter for a 1967 4020?

Also, this 4020 was overhauled last winter, not me. It is putting out 110 HP. It smokes light blue smoke a lot, even when raking or just idling. Could the pump settings, e.g. fuel rate or timing contribute to hard starting? I would like the owner to take it to the local diesel shop to get tuned up but so far he is not interested.

Paul
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Is the starter dragging/engine not spinning fast enough?Or is engine spinning fast enough just not starting right away?
Paul
 
"Connections All Look Good" has been the downfall of many who have electrical problems. The ONLY way to test connections and cables is with a VOLTMETER while the system is under load. The ONLY definitive way to check batteries is to charge them and take them to a shop that has a heavy duty carbon pile tester. The battery is loaded at half its CCA for 15 seconds and the voltage must not drop below 9.6 volts in order to pass.
 
A Nipendenso starter is about the best,,and do you wiggle the steering wheel a bit when you start it,, this helps a lot too,,others will chime in and tell you to put a destroking valve on it,, but it's simpler to jiggle the steering wheel and you don't need to get back off the sea to deal with the valve... I use the little Iskra's a lot but the Nipp is better..
 
Tim, where do you get the Nipendenso starter? I will Google but any direction you can give would be appreciated. Paul
 
I should point out this 4020 has been converted to 12V. I have been looking through the JD Parts but voltage is not specified. I am assuming the earlier serial numbers (before 201,000) are 24v starters, e.g. TY6703) and those after are 12v starters. In the serial number range after 201,000 there are both Delco and Denso brands and many offerings.

My question is how do I know which 12v starter will fit this engine? This tractor is Serial Number T213R 148221R, 1967 Model. The number cast into the engine block is R40890R

Paul
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What does "star hard" mean? Cranking like it should and not firing? Or cranking too slow? BIG difference.

Denso or Delco spin the same speed. Denso is just a little more rugged.

What is the RPM at cranking and voltage AT the starter-power-post when cranking?

Do you have a hydraulic pump destroker and are you using it? Some 4020s would not hardly crank-over right when new without that destroker.
 
Your starter looks like a 24V. The 12V
starters are longer. That 24V won't crank
as fast on 12V.
I would check injectors for that smoke problem.
Would affect starting also.
 
Check the timing and the SPEED ADVANCE for correct setting . If the steering is calling for oil ,the hyd. pump will load the starter causing it too not crank as fast . I suspect you have leaking or low pressure injectors .
 
Steering problems often result in very hard and slow cranking and lots of burnt up starters. Install a $10 pump destroker and use it.

As far as the injection-pump goes and smoking all the time? Was the max delivery screw just turn in or were there other mods done to the pump? Have you checked the automatic fuel-timing advance that is supposed to advance timing as the RPMs go up?
 
Save your 10 dollars for the coffee shop and just jiggle the steering wheel a bit...you will get near the same effect...
 
We were talking about the automatic fuel-timing this a.m. at breakfast. Can you school me on how to check it?

One of the guys at breakfast also suggested I tweek the timing very little at a time while running and see if the smoke goes away. He suggested keep the screw snug so I can just barely twist the pump.

Thanks for your comments.

Paul
 
It will not want to turn very well,, the lines will be holding it,,then you will look for the Big Channel locs,,then next you will be breaking things on the pump....just saying...I know how this story ends...
 
Thanks everyone for your comments. They are extremely helpful. I will print this out and check them off as I complete them.

Any schooling on the pump would be helpful. I am an electrical engineer and old farm boy so I have some aptitude but the pumps are not my strength. I even got a book but I think I need to read it about 10 more times. :)

The connections all look good. I have a post under the dash to bring two 12v batterys together, even it looks good after two years. I had sprayed it with corrosion preventative when I built/installed it.

The comment about the length of the starter is very interesting. I have a 1971 4020 sitting there, the starter on it is way longer.

Tim, I hope I am not asking stupid questions about the starter p/n. I just did not know if the geometry of the mounting and gear engagement changed over the years. I may pull the starter from the 71 and put it in this 67 and try it.

Thanks again and Happy New Year

The Picture is me working on my shed in the approximately 2005 frame. If course it is dark, I did much of the work at night after dark by the light of Halogen Lights all around. Tractor is an 855 with loader and backhoe on it.

Paul
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You do not know if the valve deck heights were checked during the overhaul.

Pull the pump / injectors, send to Dieseltech, then run compression test before you put the injectors back in.
 
Seeing how you understand electronics- doing a simple voltage check should be "simple." Voltage at the big post on the starter-solenoid when cranking should be at least 9 volts if all is right. Engine should crank at 150-200 RPM for good starting. 12 volt starters are designed to work at 9-10 volts.

Again - having a destroker on the hydraulic pump is an absolute must on some 4020s. Have you checked to see if there is one installed? If not, it is a $10 part and very easy to install.

Personally, at this point I think you'd be crazy to yank the pump and injectors out at this point of your diagnostics.
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Why would an electrical engineer say "the connections all look good." The ONLY way to check connections and cables is to check voltage drop on both the supply side and return side of the circuit. I have yet t meet anyone who could SEE electrons.
 
Thanks for your comment. You're right, data is the name of the game. The Batteries went with the owner to get checked. They checked "OK". Ya, that was not a warm fuzzy. Right now I don't have them in my possession.

As I said there are many good comments here I will check off as I complete them. At this point I can only comment on what I observed as I pulled the batteries out to test.

Paul
 
In all my years as a tractor dealer and farmer I recall many times where the connections and lugs and terminals and posts were all bright n shiny and cable ends looked fine to the eye, but under the crimp (not visible to eye) at the cable ends heat and burning and carbon created a resistive connection which dropped excess voltage when heavy starter motor loads were being drawn, and obviously causing slowwwwwwwwww cranking. Sounds like you already had the batteries under a good Load Test so if they check out and are well charged and its NOT a hydraulic or destroking sort of a problem as discussed below, its time for some voltage drop data (cables and terminations and grounds or solenoids if possible etc) WHILE CRANKING...If its NOT any of that HMMMMMMMMMM the expensive starter grrrrrrrrrrrrrr Murphy strikes again.

John T
 

I agree 100%. Problem is that all the Bubba’s with hard starting tractors refuse to measure voltage at various places while cranking.
It appears that most Bubbas view a multimeter with the same fear as they do of a coiled angry rattle snake .
 
Could it be that the steering issue is causing the hard starting issue? I agree with what JDEM mentioned about having 9-10 volts at the big terminal of the starter with it cranking. If it is not there and the batteries tested good, I would then move back to the junction block on the battery cables and check the voltage there. Using this method it is possible to isolate a bad connection, battery cable or battery. Taking the pump out of stroke would reduce the load on the starter during starting. But if there is a leak some where (remember the steering issue) that is allowing the pump to create flow, it would never go out of stroke on its own. I highly doubt that the fuel system is suspect.

Jared
 
I've been reading and everything that has been recommended is good. BUT, I had a similar problem with starter on my 4020. Rebuilt by the best shop in town. Turned out it was all in the starter.

I would turn my attention back to the starter and make sure it's right.
 
I can tell u what we did on three a 4020 powershift a 4010 synchro and 3020 powershift, took the battery boxes off and remade them to put group 31 batteries inside still fit where the originals go, then changed the cables to have no more top or side post problems. Put eyelets on the cables and put them on the bolt with a wing nut and stopped 80 percent of john starting issues, they are still hard on starters but nowhere that they were before.
 
You can isolate the hydraulic issue stuff by either installing a destroker and check the difference.
With hydraulic issues, the motor is ususally even harder to start hot and will not restart after stall. At least that is how bad my 69 4020 15000 hours without rebuilt is...
 

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