4640 Tractor and 1770 Planter

Calling all older tractor hydraulic experts. Have power shift 4640 I want to pair with a not yet purchased 1770 16 row planter with CCS and VRD. I am concerned that I have enough hydraulic function before I buy or instead first downgrade a bit. As you go around the dealerships to get opinions, you find they vary along with Deere stats as well. That tractor had a factory pump of 3 cubic cm rated at 20-24 GPM depending on the source except the front wheel assist was standard of 4 cubic cm rated at an agreed 29.5 or 30 GPM. The latter became standard for the 50 Series. I wonder if after 35 years these pumps out there are worn out and thus a new one of the latter is a good place to start. Demand estimates call for needing 2-5 per vacuum motor, 2-3 per VRD motor, 6-7 for CCS or an overall of 17 no VRD and 25 with VRD along with a demand for lift with everything running that will be of 25 or 30 depending on source. Thus it would appear that new pump would offer just enough. Most say not so fast and it will not work just because. I might if I had to drop off the VRD and even CCS and be way under for operations but would it for sure handle it then and have the strength to lift. One may have hit it on the head when he indicated he was more concerned about the fluid volume and size of the oil cooler to keep the fluid cool enough to work especially on a 100 degree day. I have looked at a pto pump, tank and cooler for the motors to keep that much off the tractor's system but CCS remains on the tractor side. When we lift we have the maximum demand on the system but it is brief and the system has much time to rest up so could the problem be that the other functions while less demand add up to so much heat because they keep going from one end of the field to the other. Of interest is that owner's manual information tells just how to hook the planter up to 40 to 60 Series seemingly validating the use of these tractors for the job. What would be the easiest way to cool things down without the cost and hassle of a 6-13 thousand dollar system to separate a couple of functions off. Guys this is a hugh topic because it affects so many people and we simply must find and answer. These tractors are too good of machines to let go to waste and it is getting harder and harder to find any used tractor we can still work with. Many thanks! Greg
 
I am curious to see what the thoughts are out there from those who know more about this than I do, too. I, too, have a 4640 (quad range) and I purchased a much newer planter a few years ago, but not with near the hydraulic demand of yours. Prior to the current planter, I used a 12 row semi-mounted John Deere planter and the only hydraulic demand was raising/lowering, markers, and folding. My 4640 seemed noticeably slower with the hydraulic functions than a prior used 4630. We dug deeper into the 4640 and found some hydraulic system issues which were negatively impacting what I needed the tractor to do. I updated the planter to a pull type and along the way, with what was found to be deficient in the hydraulic system, we ended up putting the larger hydraulic pump into the tractor. I have not utilized all the hydraulic functions of this new planter, since I do have the choice of ground drive on the seed metering or hydraulic drive, but I do have a hydraulic driven liquid fertilizer pump. I intend to try out the hydraulic drive on the seed metering, first in soybeans perhaps next year. I do feel more confident in what I have to run all these devices when the time comes. What you have is far and above what I have, but again, I want to see what the experts have to offer on the question you raise. Thank you for bringing this topic up!
 
I need to add to what I have previously submitted. I spoke with a gentleman in a firm that makes and sells the PTO pump, reservoir and cooler units to take hydraulic load off of the tractor. He indicated these assemblies separate off the load of the fans for the vacuum motors (maximum GPM 10) only and leave the load for the CCS (maximum GPM 7) and VRD (maximum GPM 6) on the tractor's system. He indicates they have seen new tractors with huge GPM capacities remaining with smaller type coolers and thus it would seem that heating is the big issue. So VRD as well as CCS stops on the end which allows all the tractor's might to focus on lift at the moment if the vacuum fans are split off. While it seems very nice to split off 10 GPM of constant need including at lift, that leaves 13 GPM still on the tractor except at the time of lift to build heat. Is just splitting off 10 GPM enough for a cost of about $5600 and if the new tractors with loads of GPM capacity are still getting hot due to lack of cooling ability, how is it that they are getting along anyway or are they?
 
The limiting factor on these tractors is not necessarily the main hydraulic pump but the transmission charge pump. The system can withstand high gallon loads for a short period of time but for continuous use the charge pump will not be able to keep up on a planter with that many extra demands. You can buy a pto gear pump that will do the job just fine, along with a reservoir and cooler for way less than $5600 at places such as Surplus Center. You have no doubt seen Deere's site that specifies the hydraulic requirements for these planters. By doing a little calculating you can figure out which way to go. Mike
 
(quoted from post at 10:17:22 07/14/16) The limiting factor on these tractors is not necessarily the main hydraulic pump but the transmission charge pump. The system can withstand high gallon loads for a short period of time but for continuous use the charge pump will not be able to keep up on a planter with that many extra demands. You can buy a pto gear pump that will do the job just fine, along with a reservoir and cooler for way less than $5600 at places such as Surplus Center. You have no doubt seen Deere's site that specifies the hydraulic requirements for these planters. By doing a little calculating you can figure out which way to go. Mike
Sounds like I may have been shopping at all the wrong places. As bad as $5600 sounds, I have been told much higher figures yet from a JD dealer. You can get a pump alone from Prince for under $600 rated at up to 40 GPM but then would need the tank, cooler, fan, hoses, etc. Still it sounds like there is a hefty markup involved. I was aware of Surplus Center for tractor system pumps but did not know they offer these PTO pump systems, tank, cooler and all. I will go there and see what they run Mike and thanks for your input! Greg
 
Similar, but smaller. I run a 1750(I think!) 6 row, vacuum planter with a 2520. I was mostly told I couldn't do it. My 2520 has, I think, a 4010 pump in it. My issue has been heat. I bought the $200 cooler from JD which the dedicated PTO pump system uses, and put a little 12V fan next to it, and had no heat issues this year.
 
(quoted from post at 13:17:22 07/14/16) The limiting factor on these tractors is not necessarily the main hydraulic pump but the transmission charge pump. The system can withstand high gallon loads for a short period of time but for continuous use the charge pump will not be able to keep up on a planter with that many extra demands. You can buy a pto gear pump that will do the job just fine, along with a reservoir and cooler for way less than $5600 at places such as Surplus Center. You have no doubt seen Deere's site that specifies the hydraulic requirements for these planters. By doing a little calculating you can figure out which way to go. Mike

Proper connection of return line eliminates the charge pump concerns.
 
(quoted from post at 10:17:22 07/14/16) The limiting factor on these tractors is not necessarily the main hydraulic pump but the transmission charge pump. The system can withstand high gallon loads for a short period of time but for continuous use the charge pump will not be able to keep up on a planter with that many extra demands. You can buy a pto gear pump that will do the job just fine, along with a reservoir and cooler for way less than $5600 at places such as Surplus Center. You have no doubt seen Deere's site that specifies the hydraulic requirements for these planters. By doing a little calculating you can figure out which way to go. Mike
Well I called customer service and a tech at Surplus Center they offer no package set ups for this as a couple of firms who do make them so it would be me trying to copy a professionally made set up and while I like to try to be pretty crafty, I am not so sure I would make a close enough copy not having already done one. Issues such as when the flow rate is stated as unknown on the cooler I might select, would it flow enough as the one in the manufactured kit, etc. I would hate to get out there in the heat needing to plant next season and be trying to figure out when stressed for time just what all I did wrong while the system is overheating. I am afraid that as much as it would appear the cost of the thing is insane, I might better just buy the thing as much as I hate to.
 
Bob, I am not following. Are you saying that you have a PTO pump on and you bought just the cooler from JD that they use in their add on complete setup and found your own fan and reservoir? Could you please describe your system a little more so I can picture it?
Thanks,
Greg
 
A JD service manager told me today that when you are running all that hot oil back through that little cooler in the front of the tractor it is a no win situation. I wonder how much good it might do if a larger cooler could be installed in the tractor.
Greg
 
Sorry. I don't have the PTO pump. I run the blower off one SCV, and the lift/markers off the other. In looking for a cooler, I searched the parts pages and found the auxiliary system. It includes the pump/reservoir(looked identical to my old White), lines, valves, filter, and cooler. I ordered that cooler separate, from parts, for about $200. Built my own mounts. Plumbed it into the return line. And placed a little $5 12V fan from Surplus Center next to it. I also switched to running the blower from the left SCV, and used the right side for lifting/markers. Something helped, as I had no over heating problems this year.
 
That's interesting Bob. I admire your innovation there. Maybe that system would work for me and I could take a poke at it. Do you recall where you bought it?
Greg
 
we have a 24 row 1770nt with 2 hydraulic VRD motors, 2 vac fans, precision air force has 1 hyd motor that is tied in with the raise/lower so it is
only running when the planter is raised or lowered. we run it with our 8400 that has a 30 gpm pump i believe. it is about all it wants for hyd demand.
we dont have any problems, we just have to keep the engine rpms up to maintain enough flow for everything. we have schaeffers hydraulic oil in the
tractor which is suppose to be the best for preventing heat build up and dissipating heat, according to the tractor the oil runs in the 160 to 170
degree range on a upper 70 degree day once everything is warmed up.

not sure if any of this is relevant to your question but that is our experiance. if everything is up to snuff on your 4640 then it may be possible.
but just this spring we had a customer with a 4640 with 2300 psi and 16 or 17 gpm that wouldn't even lift a off brand (i dont remember what brand it
was, i had never heard of it) 12 row planter, after doing a bunch of work on his 4640 to get it ready to run the planter and it not being able to lift
it he wound up bringing his 7800 to the shop 3 days before he wanted to plant for us to install a 3rd outlet so he could plant with that.
 
If you go the PTO pump way, I suggest to put new pump, on a tank, cooler, filter, hose etc from a combine. That would be the cheap way to go, of course, it would take extra time.
 
(quoted from post at 21:10:10 07/14/16) we have a 24 row 1770nt with 2 hydraulic VRD motors, 2 vac fans, precision air force has 1 hyd motor that is tied in with the raise/lower so it is
only running when the planter is raised or lowered. we run it with our 8400 that has a 30 gpm pump i believe. it is about all it wants for hyd demand.
we dont have any problems, we just have to keep the engine rpms up to maintain enough flow for everything. we have schaeffers hydraulic oil in the
tractor which is suppose to be the best for preventing heat build up and dissipating heat, according to the tractor the oil runs in the 160 to 170
degree range on a upper 70 degree day once everything is warmed up.



not sure if any of this is relevant to your question but that is our experiance. if everything is up to snuff on your 4640 then it may be possible.
but just this spring we had a customer with a 4640 with 2300 psi and 16 or 17 gpm that wouldn't even lift a off brand (i dont remember what brand it
was, i had never heard of it) 12 row planter, after doing a bunch of work on his 4640 to get it ready to run the planter and it not being able to lift
it he wound up bringing his 7800 to the shop 3 days before he wanted to plant for us to install a 3rd outlet so he could plant with that.

Well I wonder why that 4640 was with such low output and if many of these 35 year old pumps are worn out. The standard 3 cm should put out 20 or 24 depending on which source to believe and the 4 cm is rated at about 30. Mine is the original 3 so I think I will start with a rebuilt 4. I was unaware of that oil and would use it too. Where can I buy it?
Thanks,
Greg
 
Thanks for stating that. I neglected to clearly state that in my post. I thought it was implied but it is best said. Mike
 
I pulled a 16 row 1770nt with a 4840 for 3 years. JD
put the newer high volume pump in it. Just running
the 2 vac fans was enough to seriously slow down the
lift. It's quite a load when it's folded up, too.

Running 4th gear to keep your rpm up for hydraulic
flow will limit you to 4.7 mph and burn you 100
gallon of fuel a day. That slam-bang 8-speed just
doesn't have enough gears.

I don't think I went 10 days without a service call
the first year. Cliff would pick up his tools and
say see you next week. They said it wasn't up to the
task, but it's the one that went on it because it
had a set of saddle tanks.

I would definitely get the PTO driven system, or
just start looking for a tractor to upgrade to.
 
(quoted from post at 22:52:51 07/17/16) I pulled a 16 row 1770nt with a 4840 for 3 years. JD
put the newer high volume pump in it. Just running
the 2 vac fans was enough to seriously slow down the
lift. It's quite a load when it's folded up, too.

Running 4th gear to keep your rpm up for hydraulic
flow will limit you to 4.7 mph and burn you 100
gallon of fuel a day. That slam-bang 8-speed just
doesn't have enough gears.

I don't think I went 10 days without a service call
the first year. Cliff would pick up his tools and
say see you next week. They said it wasn't up to the
task, but it's the one that went on it because it
had a set of saddle tanks.

I would definitely get the PTO driven system, or
just start looking for a tractor to upgrade to.
Thanks for an excellent comparative example. What you have said underscores my decision late week after talking to a man at the company that makes and sells the PTO systems to do it. He claims the main issue is heat buildup and that there are problems everywhere even with many of the new or near new models that have very high GPM ratings because they are still building the tractors with the small coolers and as a JD service manager told me, everything must run through that little cooler in the front of the tractor no matter what which of course is true. The PTO systems separate off only the two vacuum fans providing 15 GPM for the estimated need of 10 GPM, allowing the balance for some extra play. He claims they are working great this way leaving the VRD and CCS on the tractor system, both of which stop at lift allowing full tractor pump might toward lift. I have talked to two individuals and seen theirs who indicated failure to lift before, they feel because of heat and with the PTO system they say they have taken care of the problem. Seems while lift requires the most might of any function, it is brief and the system has time to rest from that but the vacuum fans running all the time build too much heat and they are saying the VRD and the CCS are enough less of a load so as not to generate enough heat to bother at lift time.
 

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