Water leakage cont...

Navajo350 · Sep 1, 2015

For a leaky head gasket, does anyone think that maybe I could just try and retorque the head to make sure it's equally bolted down? What would be the torque spec?

It has really good oil pressure, right on HIGH. Maybe that's what is causing it to leak, when it runs only, through a bad gasket and/or warped head/block deck? Maybe this would be an OK fix temporarily and later down the road I can replace the head gasket and get the head milled?

Lee B · Sep 1, 2015

Most always re-torque the head nuts after a heating/cooling cycle anyway - I think it would be alright for you too. 125 ft/lbs for standard studs and 150 for heat treated (dark colored) studs although many don't know what color to call them. To be safe 125 should be used.

If you put a real oil gauge on there you will find HIGH to be at most 25 PSI, doubt this would cause any leakage of water anyway.

Old school Bar's leak used to be put in brand new cars just so the dealer didn't have issues with new heads seating on new blocks with new gaskets. But be sure to get old school version part number 1196 as newer block/cylinder head repair types are meant to deposit glass inside your engine instead of being a molasses concentrate with plant parts (pepper works for this part), the repair versions of not 1196 part number are using water glass instead. ONLY 1196 should be used here, one 11 oz bottle for every 4 gallons of water system cooling capacity.

I had some serious block cracks and run 7 bottles of the stuff with antifreeze in my 44A with zero leaks since I started using the stuff. Even 7 bottles will be cheaper than milling the head at this point. Only use part number 1196 Bar's leak.

As to vibration issue - what is your high idle speed? Get a tachometer on it and find out because it's kind of important that you are not running it beyond 1,075 RPM (no load, 975 fully loaded) in the first place which may be the entire source of your vibration. Clutch driver is installed correctly but is the flywheel? They both have cast in balance masses that have to be at opposite positions on the crank. The drill spots in the adjuster plate mean that this part was balanced by itself and now it doesn't matter which way it's put on there.

Navajo350 · Sep 1, 2015

(quoted from post at 23:56:48 08/31/15) Most always re-torque the head nuts after a heating/cooling cycle anyway - I think it would be alright for you too. 125 ft/lbs for standard studs and 150 for heat treated (dark colored) studs although many don't know what color to call them. To be safe 125 should be used.

If you put a real oil gauge on there you will find HIGH to be at most 25 PSI, doubt this would cause any leakage of water anyway.

Old school Bar's leak used to be put in brand new cars just so the dealer didn't have issues with new heads seating on new blocks with new gaskets. But be sure to get old school version part number 1196 as newer block/cylinder head repair types are meant to deposit glass inside your engine instead of being a molasses concentrate with plant parts (pepper works for this part), the repair versions of not 1196 part number are using water glass instead. ONLY 1196 should be used here, one 11 oz bottle for every 4 gallons of water system cooling capacity.

I had some serious block cracks and run 7 bottles of the stuff with antifreeze in my 44A with zero leaks since I started using the stuff. Even 7 bottles will be cheaper than milling the head at this point. Only use part number 1196 Bar's leak.

As to vibration issue - what is your high idle speed? Get a tachometer on it and find out because it's kind of important that you are not running it beyond 1,075 RPM (no load, 975 fully loaded) in the first place which may be the entire source of your vibration. Clutch driver is installed correctly but is the flywheel? They both have cast in balance masses that have to be at opposite positions on the crank. The drill spots in the adjuster plate mean that this part was balanced by itself and now it doesn't matter which way it's put on there.

Ok thanks.

I'll look into that no leak stuff, but will get more info. I can get engine machine work for nothing, so maybe down the road when it's sitting for awhile I'll do that.

The too fast idle is a good point. I had to adjust the throttle stopping bolt, the one one for the back might be in too far to allow the throttle to go to high?

That would cause a vibration pretty bad, going higher than 1,075 RPMs? Even if the clutch driver and flywheel are balanced?

I was going to put the old clutch driver on to see if it would vibrate again, but maybe I'll try to figure out how to see the rpms. Is there some sort of timing light I could use for that like for cars and the harmonic balancer? Where would I point the light, flywheel?

Navajo350 · Sep 1, 2015

When you say "heating and cooling cycle," do you mean like when I heated the exhaust studs and cooled them to bust them loose? If so, good point.

Will I have to drain the oil to take off the valve cover? Or since there's an oil line that goes into the top of the cover, there's not oil sitting at the bottom?

Lee B · Sep 1, 2015

Yes, I use a model airplane digital RPM 'prop' gauge, it cost $9 20 years ago. You point it at the prop and it measures the light interrupted to give a read out of RPM. I've shown a light thru the holes in the flywheel to this effect and I've placed two strips of white tape on the flywheel too, both methods work to give a readout. Harbor Freight has one for $40 if that helps. Just keep the RPMs down until you can verify max speed is no higher than 1,100. I believe yours is rated by Nebraska test at 975 RPM full load so you add 100 to that for the governor to work down from and 1,075 is your top speed. Later tractors had higher RPMs... This would be adjusted at the rear bolt that was in backwards when you were working on the hand throttle lever. Needs to be longer if it's too fast now.

Going faster than normal sure won't help the vibration issue, I'll say that much. Flywheel can be on the wrong spline causing this, while having the gears timed in wrong positions to still get you a horizontal drive slot at the mag drive. Best way to confirm flywheel is on proper spline is to remove left side spark plug, rotate engine until you feel compression forming in the hole. Look in the hole while rotating further and stop when the piston is at TDC exactly. Now look at the three o'clock position of the flywheel. You should see the timing mark IMPULSE horizontal and lined up with index mark on transmission cover. Your mag is supposed to trip at this point and produce a loud clunk sound - that's called impulse.

Heating/Cooling cycle would be starting it until it's warm and then calling it a night. Next day when you start it back up, you are working on cycle #2. One cycle is enough to re-torque the heads and some do it again too. Even milled block and head will sometimes leak. No to oil in valve cover, it is a good deal higher than the level in the crankcase so it's mostly dry in there, but of course there will be enough to make a small mess. I'm thinking the line you are referring to is a breather tube, oil drains back to crankcase by gravity thru a passage between the cylinders if I remember correctly.

Navajo350 · Sep 1, 2015

(quoted from post at 09:32:05 09/01/15) Yes, I use a model airplane digital RPM 'prop' gauge, it cost $9 20 years ago. You point it at the prop and it measures the light interrupted to give a read out of RPM. I've shown a light thru the holes in the flywheel to this effect and I've placed two strips of white tape on the flywheel too, both methods work to give a readout. Harbor Freight has one for $40 if that helps. Just keep the RPMs down until you can verify max speed is no higher than 1,100. I believe yours is rated by Nebraska test at 975 RPM full load so you add 100 to that for the governor to work down from and 1,075 is your top speed. Later tractors had higher RPMs... This would be adjusted at the rear bolt that was in backwards when you were working on the hand throttle lever. Needs to be longer if it's too fast now.

Going faster than normal sure won't help the vibration issue, I'll say that much. Flywheel can be on the wrong spline causing this, while having the gears timed in wrong positions to still get you a horizontal drive slot at the mag drive. Best way to confirm flywheel is on proper spline is to remove left side spark plug, rotate engine until you feel compression forming in the hole. Look in the hole while rotating further and stop when the piston is at TDC exactly. Now look at the three o'clock position of the flywheel. You should see the timing mark IMPULSE horizontal and lined up with index mark on transmission cover. Your mag is supposed to trip at this point and produce a loud clunk sound - that's called impulse.

Heating/Cooling cycle would be starting it until it's warm and then calling it a night. Next day when you start it back up, you are working on cycle #2. One cycle is enough to re-torque the heads and some do it again too. Even milled block and head will sometimes leak. No to oil in valve cover, it is a good deal higher than the level in the crankcase so it's mostly dry in there, but of course there will be enough to make a small mess. I'm thinking the line you are referring to is a breather tube, oil drains back to crankcase by gravity thru a passage between the cylinders if I remember correctly.

I had a reputable guy rebuild the carb and mag. I timed the mag and already did all you said. I don't think it vibrates too bad now. I put the old clutch driver in and the driver is on the correct spline.

With all that said, could the mag still be timed right on, but the flywheel off one tooth?

Lee B · Sep 1, 2015

Yes, that is possible, it's what I tried to address in the post before. I think you meant one spline though as one tooth is a very small percentage of total degrees to be out of time and just one spline knocks 20 degrees out of the ball park never to be seen again kind of difference. You would have noticed the flywheel being off by just one spline, but one tooth of the cam gear is something else very much finer and NOT so easy to notice. You can have the cam in perfect time with the crank and still have the mag timing off as well.

You can't have it both ways though, either you checked it before and it was as I outlined it before - OR it wasn't. Is the impulse mark exactly opposite the piston or not? If the impulse mark is horizontal to the right and the piston is exactly TDC to the left, then the flywheel is on the correct spline and no correction need be done.

I'm curious, was there much of a difference in vibration between the two drivers? The newer one may not have as much offset mass due to being for a different year?

Navajo350 · Sep 1, 2015

Yeah, the older driver seems better. I'll keep the new one an when I rebuild the engine someday, I'll have my dad balance it.

I'm still trying to fine tune the throttle linkage. I put the long rod half s hole into the carb at full throttle. But, what really is full throttle?? To get full throttle at about 1100RPMs, the throttle lever only seems to be midrange. And i have to guess where full throttle is since the back stop bolt won't reach that far ahead.

It seams the carb kind of accelerates at mid range throttle too and won't stay put. So maybe one more full rotation shorter on the rod that goes into the carb?

BTW, I adjusted the rod between the governor and throttle pretty far out, long. I thought this would allow me to hit that back stopping bolt better while giving me more fI love you and I would appreciate itorward range on the throttle linkage and not increase RPMs at the top.

Pete in MD · Sep 1, 2015

""Yeah, the older driver seems better. I'll keep the new one an when I rebuild the engine someday, I'll have my dad balance it.""

One more time, the driver and the flywheel are NOT balanced. When the flywheel and the driver are installed correctly the entire crankshaft assembly (flywheel, crank, pistons, and driver) is, as a unit, in balance or as close to in balance as possible.

Navajo350 · Sep 1, 2015

I meant, balance them. He balances all that for any application. The driver, crank, rods, pistons, and flywheel. Good point though.

Lee B · Sep 2, 2015

One can use straight drop in for throttle rod adjustment for a slight difference in how the governor will react at bottom end of range which also then can effect how the top end functions. This setting seems to be quite sensitive on some so be careful you don't loose top end speed control completely and can shut her down real quick like if needed. Full hole also can be used when the governor isn't giving desired results at any other adjustment.

You may have an extra strong governor spring on there causing the hand lever to wind up all in and still only half way across to the stop? Sure sounds like someone 'hot rodded' it with a stiffer spring or perhaps doubled them - I just don't understand why some recommend doing this. Others in a different camp suggest that they can need replacement commonly which I do not object to at all. The stop is supposed to be governed full speed as this is where you can actually adjust that top speed. Yours is not adjustable without putting in an unsightly five inch bolt. If that would even work right. Sounds to me like the governor spring is way too strong there.

Navajo350 · Sep 2, 2015

(quoted from post at 01:23:08 09/02/15) One can use straight drop in for throttle rod adjustment for a slight difference in how the governor will react at bottom end of range which also then can effect how the top end functions. This setting seems to be quite sensitive on some so be careful you don't loose top end speed control completely and can shut her down real quick like if needed. Full hole also can be used when the governor isn't giving desired results at any other adjustment.

You may have an extra strong governor spring on there causing the hand lever to wind up all in and still only half way across to the stop? Sure sounds like someone 'hot rodded' it with a stiffer spring or perhaps doubled them - I just don't understand why some recommend doing this. Others in a different camp suggest that they can need replacement commonly which I do not object to at all. The stop is supposed to be governed full speed as this is where you can actually adjust that top speed. Yours is not adjustable without putting in an unsightly five inch bolt. If that would even work right. Sounds to me like the governor spring is way too strong there.

That's a good point. But, I took the throttle rod of the carb when running. I manually moved the butterfly to the open position to see what the governor did. It did really nothing. So I don't think it's the spring.

Inside the governor, everything looks fine, free, and like it dhould work like it's suppose to with the weights, bearing, and fork. The shaft that the for is on is going the right way and the governor spring is facing the right way.

Navajo350 · Sep 2, 2015

You said that you put 7 bottles of the stop leak stuff 1196. How much water does yours hold? My '37 A holds about 8 gallons. I put 1 bottle in the radiator and ran it at idle like it says. 11oz for every 4 gallons. It seemed to work yesterday, but now today it is leaking again. So I put another bottle in.

Are you saying I can add more bottles even though I met the quota, and without doing harm to the engine or coolant system? Like clog up my new radiator core with this stuff and restrict water flow?

Ray Durham · Sep 2, 2015

Lee, I am thinking about getting one of the $40 timing lights from HF. When you used the white tape on your flywheel did you just put 2 strips on the edge and directly opposite each other?

Navajo350 · Sep 2, 2015

After fussing with the governor, I went back to the throttle rod. I messed with it a bunch of times and still couldn't get it right. I had a reputable carb/mag guy make a new rod. So, I figured to try the old one, and without a washer underneath the top cotter pin. I can actually see the governor working now.

When warm, it's still acting up at the top end though. I'm thinking about tomorrow morning getting rid the nut on the adjustable able on the throttle rod. I think that will give the tension I need maybe. Or, at least I hope.

I'm not sure though why the governor works properly only before getting up to temperature though.

Lee B · Sep 3, 2015

Yes Ray, that's exactly what I did but on the face of the flywheel since I have a band covering my rim and starter teeth. My prop tach can be toggled with the power switch to do two and three bladed props, but to be honest I don't know how the HF unit works exactly. Further goofing around shows that black tape can used just as easily. When I need to test my meter, I point it at a shop light and read 3,600 which is the reading you get from 60Hz florescent lights. I use this trick to set gensets to proper speed by plugging in a florescent light and adjusting for 3,600 number there.

Water leakage cont...

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